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dirtbag
climber
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Fatty,
Whatever the reason, it's not working.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Do I regret it? Yes, but only because it was done incompetently. I will say, though, that the next time we go on such an adventure, and we will, I hope we've learned some lessons and do it right. I think of the ME as a prolonged struggle with Iraq as one battle of many coming. There are some parallels with our own Civil War where many blunders occurred early on. But time and experience corrected those deficiencies for the North. If you think pulling out of Iraq will result in qualified peace in the ME, you're dreaming. It's going to keep getting worse, and we will be back. We'll have no choice.
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fartrad
Mountain climber
Idaho
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"Time to face up to the reality that Friedman is now realizing that I was correct."
Friedman realizing YOU were correct?
LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL! Good one! Almost pissed myself!
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TrundleOn
Boulder climber
above you
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Regarding Friedman's Clash of Civilization Rhetoric
"The neocons who are pushing a Clash of Civilizations are mirror-images of the terrorists that inspire their hyperbolic fear -- they are just as irrational and just as great a threat to our security."
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TrundleOn
Boulder climber
above you
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I'm calling Friedman (and all the others who push Clash of Civilization) and extremist Muslims idiots, just like the article.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Trundleon, Instead of calling people idiots, state clearly and coherently your evidence that we are not in a war of civilizations.
Ad hominem attacks are cheap, easy, and, further, are usually used by people to avoid the effort of putting forth a respectable polemic that can be discussed in a mature manner. State your beliefs and back them up with facts. Otherwise, you have no credibility.
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TrundleOn
Boulder climber
above you
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Read the articles Woody. Fatrad suggested idiot, I just put both groups in the same category. If you like, I'll just call them both "shortsided".
It's so easy to use "clash of civilization" and "history is unimportant" when we think it is to our advantage.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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WoodyST,
Cut the semantics and get to the heart of the matter.
Will killing other people in the name of, or against the name of religion get you anywhere in the long run?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Cut what semantics? Further, try to be specific.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Fatty this isn't WWII! I agree that it is possible, and hint as much in my post when I said it would take our country being 100% about accomplishing that goal. We aren't! Even YOU aren't. You just like to sit in front of your computer and argue that we SHOULD be about it. Or OTHER people should be anyway, particularly the younger and quite likely less educated and less wealthy people that you want to conscript into fighting your war. A war that was contrived as a reaction to decades of failed foreign policy by our nation's elites.
Now from a completely different angle, while I do not support a draft I DO support 18 - 24 months of mandatory civil or military service (the citizen's choice) for all Americans once they turn 18 or graduate from high school, whichever happens later.
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ewto
Mountain climber
slOwHIO
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"putin is so impressed w/ the US that he's openly poisoning his critics,"
See, now... I LIKE this part. I truly miss the ole' cold war games, and it sure has been nice to read about the Ruskies getting back to their old tricks. Now there's an enemy we could wrap our minds around... none of the silly blowing themselves up bullsh#t.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"See, now... I LIKE this part. I truly miss the ole' cold war games, and it sure has been nice to read about the Ruskies getting back to their old tricks. Now there's an enemy we could wrap our minds around... none of the silly blowing themselves up bullsh#t."
Sounds like evidence is mounting that the Russians WERE blowing themselves up in those apartment buidlings and blaming the Muslims for it. They just were blowing up their own people instead of their very selves. That's one of the reasons perhaps that spy was poisoned because he kept blowing the whistle on their state terrorism.
Peace
Karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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And that is my whole point right there. It never "has to go nuclear." It is assumptions and attitudes like yours that CREATED the problem. The same ones aren't going to fix it. You WANT it to be a huge conflict, and by wanting it you help create it. Which big wars haven't been clashes of civilizations? Isn't a large war by definition essentially thus?
The war in Iraq "had" to be prosecuted to protect US interests just like in the 1980's Saddam "had" to be supported to protect US interests just like in 1953 the democratically elected Shah "had" to be overthrown to protect US interests. Beginning to see a pattern?
75% of Iranians support better relations with the United States and you are talking like we are trying to avert the inevitable. I suggest that you read "Why Nations Go To War" by John G. Stoessinger. He sheds a lot of light on the seeming inevitability of the lead up to many of the major conflicts of the 20th Century.
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andanother
climber
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"bla, bla, bla"
translation:
Yeah, americans are dying. Bla, bla, bla. Who cares?
I'm not dying. I'm not going to war. So why should I care?
No one I know has died yet, so bla bla bla.
All the criticism of GW and his war do not matter to me. It doesn't matter if the war was f*#ked from the start, or if he lied to us. Those things don't affect me. I'm not at risk of dying. I'm not at risk of going to war. So why should I care about truth? Why should I care about thousands of innocent people losing their lives?
bla bla bla.
Get a haircut, hippie.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2006 - 09:26pm PT
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^ ^ ^
exactly
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Any such 'clash' makes the leaping assumption that there is a 'civilization' to actually clash with when in reality there isn't one. What there are, however, is two broad, geographically dispersed 'cultures' - one Sunni, one Shiite. If you are paying attention you'd note that those two cultures are having a 'clash' for control of the Middle East. And despite the fact that Sunnis represent 80-85% of all Muslims, the Shiites wholly control some states, are well embedded in others, are well financed, and typically - correctly or incorrectly - might be considered more of a threat than the Sunnis. Both 'cultures', like chritianity, are further fractured into highly divisive sects.
In short, there is no 'civilization' to 'clash' with. More like a regional Muslim civil war where we keep cluelessly getting played by radical participants on one side or the other. We also have a long history of stumbling and bumbling around the Middle East. The U.S. is like the elephant in a china shop inadvertantly upsetting the balance of power between two sides who otherwise would normally only agree on the muzzle velocity of an AK-47; instead we provide them the fodder to radicalize and inflame each side - but for their war with each other, not us. In fact, our invasion of Iraq has clearly disturbed the balance of power towards the Shiites in a way the Ayatollahs could only have dreamed about before our latest misadventures. It's almost like the neocons were paid operatives of the Grand Ayatollah or might have well have been.
9/11 and other "Islamic terrorism" isn't about them versus us - it's about using us as a proxy, leverage, stooge, and dupe in their war against each other. Because of our ridiculously biased support of Israel we get attacked by both Shiites and Sunnis as each attempt to prove they are THE ones who really have the power to "drive the infidels from our lands". But they couldn't care less about that; once one side or the other dominated the Middle East they'd suddenly be open for business like never before. We're mainly a target for our biased support of Israel and because we keep running out in the middle of the street in a bad neighborhood or sneaking around back alleys hoping to alternately hustle one side or the other for some exceptionally short term gain. That's why OBL and Saddam were once our best buds - clueless, short term thinking and meddling. And the reason OBL has of late been bombing us is to build credibility in, and radicalize, the Sunni world in his attempt to unseat the current generation of Sunni leaders and paint them as impotent US puppets.
There ain't no 'clash' because there ain't no civilization.
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fartrad
Mountain climber
Idaho
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fatty quote - "We can't go back in time to fix the past mistakes, have to deal with the current problems. IF the allies had been more gracious winners after WWI, Germany might not have had a depression and Hitler a vehicle for power, but it didn't matter on 12/07/41. And 1953 didn't matter on 9/11/01"
If "we", the current "allies", had been more pragmatic and more into diplomacy by dialogue instead of diplomacy by gun over the past 6 years many more countries in the middle east would not have the view of the US as they currently have.
The ability to smell Bull Sh#t is a universally human trait.
Try being honest and fair across the board and you would see people react in a positive manor.
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dirtbag
climber
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Aye, I'm getting you two mixed up.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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56 MILLION Moslems freed from living under the boot of tyrany and some people here are so niggardly they complain about the *cost*.
We fought a Civil War in the 1860's to free three million Black Slaves at a cost of over 500,000 killed.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Bla, bla, bla...Yes that's right, morons. I say that not to disrepect out troops and their efforts, BUT BECAUSE ALL YOU PEOPLE CAN DO (except Karl sometimes) IS BITCH AND WHINE ABOUT EVERYTHING AND OFFER NO REALISTIC SOLUTIONS YOURSELVES!!!!
Bush bad bla, bla, bla....Democrats great sis boom bah. Sometimes I get frustrated listening to this crap.
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