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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 17, 2006 - 05:20pm PT
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The biggest single detriment to good material in climbing mags is the shift (starting in the late 70s) in community focus from adventure climbing to purely technical accomplishments. Creatively and aesthetically, any climbing mag will live or die by virtue of the content. Twenty five years ago, photos were almost a second thought and the emphasis was on stories, and what happened in those stories. As the shift toward graphic arts took hold and the climbing community gravitated away from adventure climbing to sport climbing, photos took the place of thoughtful and epic stories for one simple reason. What made most of the old time stories so riveting was the tangible sense of risk and commitment. People had a lot at stake, often their very lives, and that shined through. Once the routes were bolted bottom to top, the risk was removed and also the big, classic themes that have driven epic literature since Homer. Without the risk and the big themes you’re left with people simply yarding their way up the rock. Posturing and attitude came to replace spiritual steel and the quest for the unknown and in the end--who really cares when there’s no jeopardy. The excitement is gone. Also, the grand sense of scale of El Cap or other great walls has been supplanted by the boulders out at the Buttermilks, and great as they are, they’re still small potatoes indeed. Add to this an almost total atomizing of the nuclear climbing community and we’re left with what we got: “articles” consisting of a few sound bytes and a caption or two shorn up with fifty pics. Moreover, those who do undertake Big Adventures are often so poorly read, spending all their free time either camped on the cell phone, the internet or on Play Station, that they could no more string together a meaningful story of their epic than they could long jump the Grand Canyon. True, Alpinist seems to be keeping the old flame aglow, but that flame is nevertheless old. Climbing literature basically stalled in the 70s and never redefined itself, never evolved like modern lit., which just now is crawling out of the self-absorbed doldrums of post-moderninsm.
Just a few quick thoughts . . .
JL
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 17, 2006 - 05:59pm PT
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Hey John, I think your take on the writing is the main thing that I notice about what is different with the current magazines. I don't know if it is because the 'adventure' part has changed or if climbers just don't write. I suspect that it is both and that they are connected.
I also think that the writing is one of the main determinates of why the 60s and 70s seem so special to everyone—there was a lot written in ways that is still readable and meaningful. The climbers of the 60s and 70s as a group expected climbers to write and write well about their climbs. As individuals, the climbers are not much different. The climbing is essentially the same, only much harder. But the best climbers today don’t seem to be expected to write themselves. And when they do, even if it is readable, there is not much evocative art.
I subscribe to all three magazines but only to give the illusion that I am keeping up. I might as well be reading about skateboarding.
Roger
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Nov 17, 2006 - 06:01pm PT
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Jesus John, that is just so like you to come in here and ruin all our fun with a well thought out, well written explanation. Now who among us is ever going to criticize that post? Surely not I!
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Nov 17, 2006 - 06:24pm PT
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When I read Climbing, or R and I, I feel like I'm the only climber around not doing VII, 5.14, WI6, A4+, in-a-day. Maybe it's because I'm insecure, or maybe it's because those mags fixate on the most technically gifted (understandably so), loudest spraying (not understandably so) climbers.
I like the idea that climbing is a choice of lifestyle, and a very personal experience that one has outside, away from the masses. Somehow, I used to feel supported in that notion by the mags. a number of years back, but I don't anymore.
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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Nov 17, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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JL Rules!!
man, never stop writing......
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 17, 2006 - 07:18pm PT
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Mr Long tells it like it is.
Some of the best articles, the ones that stay with me for decades, have had no photos at all.
Two that come to mind are A Ron Fawcett-Jill Kent article in Mountain called "Easy Day". The other is one called "Tugley Wood".
I've long since lost those two issues, but twenty years later I can remember them like I just read them an hour ago.
Mr Milktoast nailed it (in his first post).
I'll never climb 5.14. I'll never go to Iran or Khazikstan. I don't give a damn what or how those folks climb, especially when one line of bolts spaced 5' apart looks just like all the others, be it in Colorado or Thailand.
But what put the nail in Big Magazine's coffin as far as I'm concerned was "The Secrets Issue". That issue featured a bunch of recently developed areas, but "we aren't going to tell you where they are, that's why they're secret".
I thought we were a *comunity* here.
Right from their first issue, Rock and Ice included a "Guide", with a topo and a map to some of the lesser-known areas. Now they want to keep that info *secret*.
OK, I get it. I'll hang out with my comunity, and you can sell your magazines to your comunity.
"Tuesday Night Bouldering" convinced me I was right by never again buying another Rag from Colorado.
This site more than makes up for the info I used to look to Big Magazine to find. In real-time.
Chicken-Skinner and Tarbuster's photos, Stonemaster Stories, and all the trip reports hella kick ass (did I say that right T*r?) over anything I have read in Big Magazine for at least ten years.
It ain't slander if it's true!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2006 - 07:31pm PT
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You guys are all old curmudgeons and over the hill.
You got to be young squirts like me to appreciate.
I'll be turning 17 next year, see ya all at the V6 boulder ......
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Drew
Mountain climber
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Nov 17, 2006 - 07:47pm PT
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I normally don't do this, but I feel particularly compelled to reply this time to an above average "slander the mags" posting. ...
I work at Rock and Ice, and would just like to clarify a few misconceptions about how this magazine does business.
First, our editorial content is neither driven by advertising nor the pressures of "those who spray the loudest." It's simply not. As far as I can tell, our unoffical mission statement is to illuminate the climbing experience while providing inspiration to the reader.
One of the most consistent bits of feedback we receive is that we should cover more "average climber stuff." Rock and Ice is totally open to that. Please send your article ideas and photos in to me: abisharat@rockandice.com. I'm dead serious about that, too.
We entertain many queries and photographic submissions, and choose only the very best. We're not biased to only hearing the so-called hardcore experience at all. Quality comes first. That's because we're a small family owned operation and we can't afford to put out a bad product that no one will like.
Largo, this is for you:
I have to disagree with your premise that the shift in climbing literature that you refer to is somehow linked to a loss of adventure in the climbing scene, which, in turn, is linked to a greater trend in dull po-mo literature.
I believe you're right in saying that when people put their lives at stake, it reveals something amazing about the human condition, and that can be the source for amazing pieces of writing. But I don't think that these circumstances are necessary to tackle the "big themes." Good writing is a product of a good writer. You're an amazing writer not because of the crazy, wild adventures you've had along the way--you're a good writer because you have God-given talent, and if you were a farmer, I have no doubt we'd be reading literature from the pastoral life that makes us think, laugh and cry.
In your Stonemasters piece (one of my favorites), you say you had your literature and heroes--Buhl etc.--but that you had your own mountains far away from the Himalaya to gain these deeper experiences that are so incredibly human, and which seem as though they could only be found in a sport as complex as climbing.
Well, people of my generation have you as our provocateur and enlightened wordsmith to draw from. But we also have our own mountains, even if they're small and are covered with bolts. El Cap is no longer the battlefield upon which one proves themselves in the same way it was when you first climbed it. Yes, it's still a proving ground, but with less grandeur. I mean, I've climbed El Cap a few times, and I am a scared weakling!
I truly believe that you can write about anything, and do it in a way that illuminates who we are as humans and climbers. But writing, like climbing, is really hard. You can't just go do 5.14 in the first week of climbing--it takes most people years to climb at an elite level (no matter what discipline), and I think it takes even more time to learn how to write well, unless you're gifted like you, Largo.
OK, that's it for my two cents. Since I'm posting here, I guess I should say a couple more things that I've always wanted to say: First, that writing, editing and photography takes more hard work than I think people give it credit. I truly do want to hear everyone's story and take on the climbing experience--but I'm telling you right now that it's difficult to do. But send it in! There's no grand conspiracy among gear companies and pro athletes to only cover a sliver of climbing. If it sucks, we'll tell you all the reasons why ... and none of those reasons will be because you're an "average climber with average experiences."
Second, I've worked in many places and held down tons of jobs, and I've never seen the kind of passion To Do, To Create, as I've seen here at Rock and Ice. I go to work every day, and it feels like I'm entering some kind of weird crossbreed between good friends and family--with everyone totally inspired to make the greatest magazine on the earth, and it's only because of a true love with climbing. I work of tons of hours a week, and put up with incessant criticism (which I do value and take seriously), and would love nothing more than to live on the Circuit and climb all the time again. And while I probably will do that someday, right now I can't express how psyched and passionate I am about Rock and Ice; this stems from two things--a love for climbing, and the energy of the staff here. And I know that we all hope you feel the same about this magazine...
OK. Thanks for reading! I promise I won't write anything that gushy ever again. ...
andrew bisharat
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Nov 17, 2006 - 07:52pm PT
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man, tough critics here. Yea, I read those mags, even subscribe so my lazy ass doesnt have to go to the store to git em. But, I am not looking for anything other than what they offer; pictures and stories of climbing. Lets face it, how many here have a copy of R&I or climbing next to the shitter? What was that, Alpinist, mountain, and ascent too? And, every now and then, theres a great article or incredible photos, or even a photo in an ad that is of a route from years ago that brings back memories...
If you really want something interesting to read, magazines arent the best choice. Or maybe they are if you arent looking for much.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 17, 2006 - 07:57pm PT
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Andrew...Thanks for posting. In case you missed it up thread or thought I was being sarcastic, I really do think your column kicks ass. You definately speak for something that is the opposite of elitism.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:00pm PT
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Nice post, Drew. I can't say I'm going to go out and love climbing magazines, but if the writing was anything like your sincere response, I'd give it a shot. It's that sense of passion that I think is what's missing. I open a magazine and it's about some comp or how to tie a knot and ::yawn.:: Our little SLO-Op got a write-up in Urban Climber and it still didn't feel like The Truth to me. Partly it's my fault for being drunk and giving bad soundbite quotes. Point being - feel the passion!
The fact is, I think many people want to hear The Truth. For some, The Truth is some 5.14 seige, for others, it's the adventure, or a good time . . . my favorite article recently (and it wasn't an article) was the scrapbook photo essay in Alpinist a few years ago. I forgot the gal's name that did it, but that was The Truth. And that's what draws me to read.
Or watch. I was really impressed with the First Ascents movie when it came to town on the tour. It had The Truth. Characters, desires, stories. Not just, "Here I am, climbing something hard."
The more of this thread I read, the more I think that those of you with strong opinions about The Truth (ethics, places, etc) should take over the climbing magazines with your gospel and see how it goes. That's where Alpinist consistently trumps the other mags, though I gave up on them after major subscription problems.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:00pm PT
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Just see
It's the human element that gets through and transcends .......
Thanks Andrew, your post is most appreciated.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
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I actually enjoyed the latest issue of R & I. for the simple reason that there were a few profiles of middle aged climbers, Tom Gilje and Chris Blotter, who have grappled with real life issues, injury, addiction, mental health problems etc. I can be inspired for about 30 seconds viewing photos of another strong kid campusing, but perhaps since I spend some time teaching climbing to teens who are in recovery from meth, and/or dealing with other troubles, I was moved by these articles. I also liked Kevin Swifts' account of "the success of failure".
Peter
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:49pm PT
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You are so right about that Werner... if pieces were written where there was a genuine human element, then we would all be reading them wherever they were published.
Problem is that what is written if often not that.
And there is probably some selective memory going by those of us who remember the literature of the past, certainly not everything was worth saving... there are two anthologies that I can think of, three, and perhaps there should be a few more, from that period... but not many more, and out of how many articles?
It's not so much about slandering the mags, but perhaps Roger alluded to the frustration that people who could write, who should write, don't always. It is a personal choice, and not a particularly recent occurence to choose not to... didn't Roper write, "we all wished Pratt would have written more"? and we all do... but it was his choice not to.
It should make us all happy that there is good stuff that gets written at all. Whether on the net or in the mags or as an email to friends.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Nov 17, 2006 - 09:42pm PT
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My view on the mags and the problem with the mags (was that the question?)
Anyway... The "mags" may be family and all out to bring it in for the home team, but in this lies the problem ie: you guys are too insulated and incestuous. There is too much back slapping and covering for each other. In my mag experience, which covers many sides of a warped reality, there are many problems that show up in the finished product. The mag bubble must be breached to bring in quality. Pet pieces by staff writers that are only interesting to them, editors that are hell bent on trimming articles to an unrecognizable slab of instant rad, and advertising that is dependant on the cozy outside right page spread that just happens to feature an article on the latest high number glory boy. Recent probes of this very site were for "dirtbag story" ideas... and after much poo-pooing of the idea, the hell bent author is probably still typing away at this very minute. Now more than ever, the mags need to put out quality and varied writing and articles that people will want to see. Make it worth the wait. The internet has made news and photos so instant, that that slice of the market is really gone for you mag guys. Reinvent yourselves. Last thing I want to do is wait on my mag to show up and all I read about is either 5.17 clipups or something I have already seen on the 'Taco 5 weeks previous. And for the most part, the Taco had more and better photos, and was beyond timely, sometimes a whole 12 minutes after the event happened.
As a background: I've written stuff for the mags and sent it in unsolicited, I've written for the mags as a paid piece gig, I've advertised in the mags, I've edited for the mags, I've been impacted by the mags bias in a financial way, and I've generated spurrious letters for the mags, with their consent, to spice up the letters sections. I also know about 15 people past and present that have either owned/published the mags, worked for the mags, or slept with the staff of the mags. I am of the opinion that the mags have become worse and worse.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 17, 2006 - 10:04pm PT
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Andrew--
"Big themes" basically means what a person encounters inside of themselves when they move outside of their comfort zone and they have genuine skin on the line. The goals of recent generations of climbers have changed, as they should have, but the bolts (which I gladly clip) have greatly expanded the comfort zone and basically eliminated the skin quotient. My point is, given the same writer, his/her more robust and sincere work is likely to come from shivering through an epic on Trango Tower over cranking a sport route in the Gorge. But you're right--a skilled writer can work wonders with most anything. One of my favorite climbing articles is by some guy who made a cross country road trip and the story never really leaves his car.
However I totally disagree with you that I've been able to crank out a few worthwhile stories on natural ability alone. I've always had a certain knack for narrative, but I went throught the steps--starting early on with reading, writing classes in high school, lit in college blah blah blah. I've been doing this now for thirty five years and I can tell you what you already know--good writing takes a ton of work. And maybe that's the problem. Not only do few people read much anymore, they also expect to dash off a masterpiece with the greatest of ease. I know the often dreadful shape of what arrives on your desk on a daily basis.
It's too bad, really. You just know there's talent out there but they either take a journalistic tack (informational not experiential), or can't be bothered. I'd even settle for some po-mo adventure lit if a few more doods would just step up.
JL
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 17, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
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I've never been more than your average run of the mill "average" climber.
In the early 70's I'd obsess over when the next coppy of Mountain would be out because for some strange reason a British mag would have in its first few pages the latest news about my home crag and what people I either knew as partners or by reputation had done recently.
What has truely changed is who the "average" climber is.
My collection abruptly stops only a few years after Mountain disapeared from the scene. In fact the only mags I've bought in the last 5 years or so have been Alpinist ( for buisiness road trip reading) and the JL Stonemaster issue.
Can't even remember the name of the mag.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2006 - 10:28am PT
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Andrew - Thanks for posting up. As has been noted, a thoughtful and artistic response.
My intention by starting this thread was not so much about starting a dog-pile on the mags (the title came from the other thread) as much as to give people a place to air their grievances or throw out some suggestions for you guys to hear what the people in the trenches are thinking. People don't write letters much anymore, so I'm assuming you don't get much of an opportunity to get direct feedback, other than in one of the climbing forums.
One thing that comes to mind after reading all of the responses here: When it comes down to brass tacks, content has to come from the community, so if the spraylords or extreeeeme dudez are the only ones coming up with it, then I guess we all got what we asked for.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Jarhead City, CA
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Nov 18, 2006 - 12:13pm PT
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I think it even goes beyond pure content into design. The few times in the last 6 mo I've picked up an R&I or Climbing at the grocery to flip through, the layouts are so busy/cluttered it borders on unreadable (to me anyway). That is one area where Alpinist really shines. And yes, I know it's different when they're only printing full page ads, but it seems to me that even compared with the mid 90s stuff Climbing and R&I have gone way downhill in the layout dept. JMO.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 18, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
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One thing I'm just slightly bothered by here on the Taco is the relative inflexibility of people's viewpoints. While I agree that trad climbing yields the deepest experience for me, personally, I really dig what the current technical masters are doing, too. From sport climbing to free-soloing, from Yosemite to the Alps, from ice festivals to the Rupal Face in alpine style, I drink it all up. Each of the mags suits its' own readership. I glance through some, and read the other (Alpinist) cover-to-cover. Climbing is a really diverse and interesting activity - mere sport to some - and lifestyle/almost religion to others. Long live climbing, and climbers communicating their individual experiences.
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