:: SuperTopo Rock Climbing Discussion Topic

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 21 - 40 of total 41 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 06:49pm PT

You probably thread your rope through the quick links holding the rap ring before you rap too.

Perfectly safe.

couchmaster

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 06:52pm PT

Too confusing already lurking mclurker.

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 07:03pm PT

Let me slow it down for you Couchy McMaster.

A belay loop is there for a reason.

It is the strongest point on your harness.

It orientates your belay carab so that the rope runs through your belay device vertically.

Does that not make sense too ewe?

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Apr 13, 2016 - 07:04pm PT

"Seems pretty reasonable to me. "

Yeah, me too. It's a principle-oriented statement, which then applies it to a TR/gym environment.

You could actually apply that three point standard to several belay methods, and it's a reasonable standard.

"Anything less than a double-fisherman's finishing knot is a death sentence"? Dude, it's 2016. A 6" tail on a well-dressed knot is fine.

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 07:10pm PT

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2016 - 07:00pm PT
LOL a@ n00bs making fun of people with sound technique. I'm out.

Lol

You're questioning industry standard. I'm sure you are safe.

I learned how to climb in a swami and used a Munter hitch or my hip for a belay I also evolved in my 25 years of climbing.

Have fun out there gramps.

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 07:47pm PT

Can't teach an ol' dog new tricks. I guess.

;-)

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 13, 2016 - 08:56pm PT

Lowest common denominator belaying - definitely in order with today's demographic.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 13, 2016 - 09:57pm PT

Lowest common denominator belaying - definitely in order with today's demographic.

And there's nothing wrong with that. The video wasn't targeting you or me--it was merely showing a few things that are essential for a good belay. We can critique the thing to death, but I suspect many will benefit from watching it.

Curt

Moof

Big Wall climber

Orygun

Apr 13, 2016 - 10:20pm PT

Kids these days are dumber than when I was their age...

So says every generation about the next.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 13, 2016 - 10:49pm PT

I don't think there's anything stupid about the AAC video. They actually validate most of the various rational ways of handling a tube style device rather than insisting on one method. They even (properly but surprisingly) accept the British method, which involves letting go with the original brake hand while locking off with the other hand--a technique that will get you thrown out of many of this country's climbing gyms.

The only irrational handling method is the one Fueco seems nostalgic for. The problem with it is that it is a carry-over from the hip belay (where it made sense) to the tube device, where it makes no sense. The hip belay does not need the brake strand to be repositioned to effect braking, a tube does. Purposely holding the brake stand in a non-locking position (for a tube) while sliding the brake hand back makes no sense---sure you might get away with it, but as a technique it irrationally keeps braking turned off longer than is necessary.

Perhaps the old farts can get away with what objectively has to be considered inferior technique, but with the attention span of people in general continually declining, a technique that leaves the belayer in a non-braking position while also moving their hands on the rope is just asking for trouble, and given that there is absolutely no advantage to that method, I find it hard to understand why anyone would continue to advocate it.

It's not faster, it's not safer, it's not easier. It's just easier to teach.

I don't buy any of this. If the contemporary methods (there isn't just one, as the video makes clear) aren't faster, they aren't slower either---it's a wash. As for safety, the modern methods are in fact safer and aren't based on a carried-over misunderstanding of the tube braking process. As for teaching, once again its a wash.

By the way, I'm as old and as farty as anyone; I've been climbing for 59 years. But I see no reason to cling to outmoded practices when better ones come along.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:00pm PT

You're advocating a method that involves continually swapping hands on the brake strand and don't see the problem??

It is absolutely standard in the UK, for example, and in fact, as the AAC video suggests, the fastest way to haul in slack when, say, a second is moving very fast.

Using the outmoded pinch and slide in such a situation, the device would almost never be in braking mode, so there is a far bigger problem there.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:13pm PT

Whatcha drinkin' tonight, F'ueco?

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:31pm PT

F'ueco-
I call them NOLS-it-alls.

This is just more ammo for the NOLS-it-alls.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:34pm PT

...with what objectively has to be considered inferior technique...

Nonsense, the only thing inferior is the attention span and lack of any notion of 'craft' on the part of today's demographic. The technique in the video, while ghastly, is 'effective', but is basically pandering to that lack of attention.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:36pm PT

Fueco, as I understand your posts you are advocating the following technique---from your link made active:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

There's nothing like this in the ATC manual you posted and claim recommends your "technique," and the picture from Freedom of the Hills is of a hip belay, which, as I said, relies on an entirely different braking protocol.

I agree that a highly attentive and constantly alert belayer can use any method and react quickly enough to hold falls. If you and your "highly experienced instructor" are among those ever-alert and never-distracted or fatiqued folks, way to go. But one doesn't base general technique on what the top 10% of the climbing population can do. Joe speaks haughtily and disparagingly of "common denominator" technique for "today's demographic," but isn't that exactly what makes the most sense for everyone, even the hyper-alert outliers? Is there some urgent reason why one's technique shouldn't be as forgiving as possible (while still being effective)?

I've seen people blow "pinch and slide" catches in the gym, and it is both fun and edifying (especially for those of us who can no longer keep up with teenagers) to heap scorn upon their incompetence. But if that incompetence is enhanced by a technique with no substantial or even insubstantial advantages, what exactly is so bad about replacing it with something that has the potential to cause less damage and injury?

mikeyschaefer

climber

Sport-o-land

Apr 14, 2016 - 12:03am PT

I would bet the Freedom of the Hills example of how to belay isn't the only outdated technique in that book...

When I worked for the Yosemite Mountaineering School from 2001 to 2007 I taught the method shown in the above video and by the Mountaineers. I only taught this method for a few years though and changed to the UBS method shown in the AAC video. When you are teaching hundreds of people to belay a year you get a pretty good idea of what works and that was definitely the more modern UBS method. I couldn't tell you how many times I saw a belayer freeze up with the ropes running parallel to each other with the older method. Thankfully we always had backup belayers and fat ropes.

I find the biggest difference between the two methods is the orientation of the brake hand. With the older method the brake hand palm is up vs the UBS standard where the brake hand palm is facing down. I find the palm down method has greater control and grip on the brake strand for braking and lowering. I find the palm up method of lowering to be less than ideal.

And F'ueco if you really want to follow the directions of manufactures you should use the belay loop to belay at all times as this is shown and stated on the BD website (unless of course you are still using a harness like the BD Alpine Bod which is the only harness they make without a belay loop)

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 14, 2016 - 12:19am PT

I'm wondering... When you rappel with an ATC, do you hold the brake hand down and in front of you, or to one side or the other? If to the side, why would you brake in a different orientation when belaying?

Isn't it really down AND to the side in both cases? You're not really saying that you hold the belay or rappel rope out to the side at a 90 degree angle are you? Sorry to interrupt your rather pedantic rant.

Curt

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Apr 14, 2016 - 12:19am PT

Interesting that that's not an atc, in the tips for using an ATC video.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 14, 2016 - 12:24am PT

You clearly didn't actually look at the picture I posted a few pages back from Page 161 of the 8th edition of Freedom Of The Hills (the current edition, no less), which clearly shows a belayer in a seated position using a tube style device.

You're right about that---I looked quickly and thought it was a hip belay. But belaying that way with a plate makes little sense and is subject to my previous comments as well as the ones added by Mikey.

I'm probably not the only one who is not impressed with the authority of FOTH.

And you also clearly didn't actually look at the user manual for the ATC/ATC-XP/ATC-Sport.

I posted that to point out that the brake strand is oriented to the side, rather than up and down.

I didn't realize you were making two different points, since you just said your position was supported by the two sources. I think the distinction between braking "straight down" and "to the side" is negligible and can see no reason to argue about one or the other. Depending on your body position, you'll get a little sharper angle straight down than off to the side and so more friction from the device, but on the other hand braking off to the side---at least when standing---can add friction from the hip, so in most cases I doubt there is a detectable difference. In any case, my point was not about the minutiae of where the brake strand runs but rather about the pinch and slide method depicted in your posted video that keeps the brake strand totally unlocked and parallel to the load strand while the belayer resets their brake hand.