Ask a Christian (way OT)

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donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:16pm PT

Any websites satyrical of christians?

zBrown

Ice climber

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:16pm PT

I must agree. Take, for example, Fletcher Christian and Captain Bligh.

WBraun

climber

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:21pm PT

I never believed that news article to begin with.

Something like that happening here would make the switchboard light up and all red flags go on high .....

looks easy from here

climber

Ben Lomond, CA

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:35pm PT

What's the first route you'd climb in the seki back country if you haven't climbed there before?

Thirty-some posts in and the first response is still the most interesting. :)

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:51pm PT

The Christians on ST should be able to bounce this up to easily 1000 posts, if we doubters keep giving them reasons to preach at us.

Sigh.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Mar 28, 2016 - 08:08pm PT

Son of God? What is the Trinity then?

After all the time I've been posting here, you still have to ask that?

Fat Dad

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Mar 28, 2016 - 08:42pm PT

^^^
Seriously.

I disagree that people of faith do not or cannot learn from each other. History, with its many examples of war, etc., because of religion, is not because of religion. It is because of people using religion as a proxy for political power. Duh. I thought you people fancied yourselves as intelligent.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Mar 28, 2016 - 08:49pm PT

Can God end hell?

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Mar 28, 2016 - 08:57pm PT

More from the Babylon Bee (http://babylonbee.com/news/local-mans-drinking-problem-still-successfully-disguised-as-craft-beer-hobby/);

Local Man’s Drinking Problem Still Successfully Disguised As Craft Beer Hobby
March 24, 2016

FRANKLIN, MA—Unable to hide his surprise and delight about the fact, local man Kevin Maxwell confirmed Thursday that his drinking problem is still successfully disguised as a craft beer hobby.

“Ten years ago I wouldn’t have had this opportunity,” Maxwell noted to sources. “But we live in a special time, when a guy—and not just any guy, but a Christian guy embedded in a local church body—can have a serious, ongoing drinking problem, and can successfully hide it behind the guise of a craft beer hobby he shares with his brothers and sisters in Christ.”

Maxwell further explained that while he drinks nearly every day and is technically probably an alcoholic, in his church he’s playfully known as a “beer snob.” In fact, one of the many places he enjoys imbibing is at a local bar during regular get-togethers with fellow church members, during which they drink expensive, high-alcohol-content beer while discussing a variety of topics like theology, sports, politics, and expensive, high-alcohol-content beer.

“It’s really something. If I were drinking Natty Ice or Five O’clock Vodka like I drink microbrews, my pastor would probably be staging an intervention. But because I call myself a ‘beer enthusiast’ and I drink Imperial IPAs and Vanilla Stouts, he’s texting me for beer recommendations.”

“How long will this last? I don’t know,” he added. “But one thing’s for sure—my drinking problem and I are going to ride this convenient wave of delicious craft beer as long as it lets us.”

grover

climber

Castlegar BC

Mar 28, 2016 - 09:14pm PT

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Mar 28, 2016 - 10:21pm PT

Dogma is a bitch.

Oh, sorry, Alex. This is supposed to be a question.

Dogma's a bitch, ain't it?

That's a "rhetorical question," LC.

No answer needed.

And it can be taken two ways, too.

So it's really a bitch, ain't it?

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2016 - 10:22pm PT

Wow, sorry about the backlog! I shouldn't have posted this right before going to dinner.

I'll preface all responses with "I believe" because stating anything as fact is kind of presumptuous and I'm not "all Christians."

What's the first route you'd climb in the seki back country if you haven't climbed there before?

I believe I'd climb the south face of Hamilton Dome. It's a route I haven't even climbed but I trust the opinions of the guys who say it's amazing!

What is the best most cohesive logical argument for the existence of god?

Ontological?
Quantity of faithful?
Cartesian?

I believe it's a combination of many different areas of study. Or at least that's how I came to the conclusion. And I honestly don't know the exact tenants of each of those arguments you posted :) Maybe something more specific?

Jesus is god, right?

So what's the big deal about dying on the cross?

That's only frightening for humans.

I believe that as it fits into the whole story it's very telling about the character of God. A system where humans should, but cannot, pay for their sins is trumped by sacrificing himself for all of us. Suffering and dying for people who betray you is a great example of love. (John 3:16)

I'll play. Who do you consider Christians? Quakers? Catholics? Episcopalian's? Baptist's?
All of the above?

Would the Big J be cool if some wanker retro-bolted his signature FA?

I believe a Christian is someone who has faith in Jesus in their heart and has confessed it with their mouth. (Romans 10:9) I also believe that JC would be cool with a retrobolt of his route but would not retrobolt someone else's route. (Luke 6:31)

If God created human life, and if God is all knowing, if he knows every decision we will ever make , why does he create people who he knows will not choose him as their God ?

Why does God create human life that is destined for eternity in hell?

I believe that God created humans and angels for loving relationships and you cannot have love or a relationship without free will. The rest seems to follow. (Revelation 4:11, 3:20)

How do you make sense with the reality that you are Christian by your culture and geographic location? Is it that you were lucky to be born into the "correct" religion, or are all religions true so everyone who follows religion follows truth?

This was one of the big failure points when I was younger - had I been born in India I would be following the multi armed goddess shiva and would be righteous in my nurtured choice rather than have a truly fair stab at exploring all ideologies as equals.

Were you raised a Christian, or did you come across it? Why is it that you've kept with it? Have you practiced other religions?

I believe this is a great question and I hope everyone, regardless of their beliefs, considers it. First, I was raised in a Christian household but worried that what you're saying here might be the case. I read a lot about other religions and even majored in Ecology & Evolution to find out about other possibilities. I was not satisfied, but explaining this in detail is a different question.

Let's say you go under the assumption that there is some sort of God/Gods/Spirits, why do I choose faith in Jesus Christ? I'll try to summarize but it will be so brief that it will probably raise more questions than it answers:
-Inclusivism Some religions teach that all religions are true and that they are all paths to God. But, some religions teach that there is only one way to God so they can't logically both be true as they are mutually exclusive. So "all religions are true" is out because they could all be wrong, but they couldn't all be right.
-Nature of God Every other religion I looked at, outside of the ones based on the first five books of the bible, teach about gods that are at odds with humans and humans are constantly trying to avoid their wrath. None of them teach about the love of God and so I don't know why they would even tolerate humans (like Greek Gods and many Native American beliefs, etc...) They teach that humans try to reach up to God, but they don't teach of a God that reaches down to humans. This doesn't make sense to me. Christianity teaches a reason for creation.
-Documentation The bible (specifically the new testament) is the only reliable documentation of God making proclamations and backing them up with observed actions.
-Nature of Jesus Not many people who read about it believe that Jesus (the human) didn't exist, and most acknowledge that he was a good person. He was either good, crazy, or a liar. I don't think he could be good AND crazy or good AND a liar.
-Statistics The odds of someone fulfilling all 48 prophesies told in the old testament is 1 in 10^157. Jesus did and that means something to me.
-Faking the Resurrection People who had seen Jesus went to their death defending what they saw. It is hard for me to believe that all of the apostles would have died for a lie. And if it was made up the authors would probably not have made themselves out to be cowards.
-Historical Evidence No other religion comes close with the amount of archaeological and textual evidence. The bible was written over thousands of years by dozens of different people on several continents and secular studies of the bible have found no contradictions. There are also hundreds of pieces of archaeological evidence for things told in the Old Testament.
-Purpose Christianity has an attainable end: relationship with God. Unlike Buddhism that teaches to not desire anything.
-Biblical Teaching I believe that the teachings in the Bible understand human nature better than any psychology or other text ever written, and it was created by random dudes thousands of years ago.
-Seeing God's Work I have seen, and have met people who have seen, miracles. Not the kind that can be easily explained away.
-Personal experience A relationship with Jesus combined with the lessons in the bible complete humans more than anything imaginable, and I don't believe that's a result of chance. Become a Christian and pray with someone to accept the Love of Jesus and experience a high that's literally beyond description.
-etc... That's pretty much off the top of my head, I'm sure I'll remember more later. I've spent a lot of time with this question.

This is really about the fact that yer own witch doctor cure of the poison
oak didn't work and now you need real help, right?

I believe it totally worked, even it was a placebo effect!

The elephant in the room has always been, is God real or a figment of comfort from the realities of life.

Without going into too much detail I believe that something comes from something and life comes from life (Romans 1:20).

If god is so powerful, can he put up a route so hard
that even he can't pull off a red point?

Since God is omnipotent, can he create such a big rock that he won't be able to lift?

;-)

Moose

I believe I will ask him someday, and whether or not he can make a burger so big he can't eat it.

Any websites satyrical of christians?

LOL

Why did the Bible not include the Tooth Fairy ? It's a story that has it all.

Because the tooth fairy isn't real :)

Can God end hell?

I believe hell is a chosen separation from God. People can end that.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Mar 29, 2016 - 12:09am PT

^^^^ Yep!

I also believe that JC would be cool with a retrobolt of his route but would not retrobolt someone else's route. (Luke 6:31)

Hahahahahaahahaha!

Good for you. l love it!

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Mar 29, 2016 - 12:43am PT

Damn dude thanks for answering that one!

Sometimes I find that people look to religion as a shotgun blast to the circle of morality - meaning, you might hit most of the target, but things deemed immoral might be moral and vice-versa.

-Nature of God Every other religion I looked at, outside of the ones based on the first five books of the bible, teach about gods that are at odds with humans and humans are constantly trying to avoid their wrath. None of them teach about the love of God and so I don't know why they would even tolerate humans (like Greek Gods and many Native American beliefs, etc...) They teach that humans try to reach up to God, but they don't teach of a God that reaches down to humans. This doesn't make sense to me. Christianity teaches a reason for creation.

I think it's drawing with a very broad brush to say that religions like daoism and buddhism are particularly wrathful, however I see your point.

-Documentation The bible (specifically the new testament) is the only reliable documentation of God making proclamations and backing them up with observed actions.

Which actions are you saying God was documented making? While I do think that there is enough evidence to say that a person named Jesus existed in the area he was in circa 30AD, with little info before his meeting of John the Baptist, the claim that written word of supernatural acts, even if they are 2000 years old, are a documentation strikes me of confirmation bias.

-Nature of Jesus Not many people who read about it believe that Jesus (the human) didn't exist, and most acknowledge that he was a good person. He was either good, crazy, or a liar. I don't think he could be good AND crazy or good AND a liar.

Jesus existing, and Jesus being the son of God yadda yadda yadda, are two different things. Today, right now, in small countries the world over, are holy men being 'documented' performing miracles. As much as I would love to trust anecdotal data, heresay and word-of-mouth, everything from Sasquatch documentaries to the Telephone game to every other historical religious figure reminds me to be skeptical of such purported truths in lieu of hard evidence.

-Statistics The odds of someone fulfilling all 48 prophesies told in the old testament is 1 in 10^157. Jesus did and that means something to me.

Question - did the people who wrote the new testament hear of those prophesies? He fulfilled them based on a book written by Men, flawed men, copied over several languages and translated often enough that the original wording can be considered completely different than what Shakespeare put to print for the common man for the first time some 500 years ago. No, I don't think this is a good answer at all.

-Faking the Resurrection People who had seen Jesus went to their death defending what they saw. It is hard for me to believe that all of the apostles would have died for a lie. And if it was made up the authors would probably not have made themselves out to be cowards.

No court in the world would hold first person accounts from 2000 years ago as evidence.

-Historical Evidence No other religion comes close with the amount of archaeological and textual evidence. The bible was written over thousands of years by dozens of different people on several continents and secular studies of the bible have found no contradictions. There are also hundreds of pieces of archaeological evidence for things told in the Old Testament.

It is easy to not contradict things that are already written - you can find thousands of pages of LotR fanfiction that is 'canon' and not-contradicting isn't grounds for truth (I wonder if L. Ron Hubbards work contradicts itself?)

To claim the historical pieces that have been found as evidence is to ignore the unscientific claims that cannot be verified. I might find the clock tower, I might find the library, but Back to the Future was fiction.

-Purpose Christianity has an attainable end: relationship with God. Unlike Buddhism that teaches to not desire anything.

One of my personal struggles with christianity as it was prescribed to me was the wanton love of a God who seems to neither care that I existed or what I did. As easily as my blessings could be blamed on God so could my hardships, and while I don't doubt many find some great ennui from his love I wonder how much is given back that couldn't be attributed to luck, preparation or the actual will of the human in charge.

-Biblical Teaching The teachings in the Bible understand human nature better than any psychology or other text ever written, and it was created by random dudes thousands of years ago.

I grew up thinking that Gay people were sinners, that sex was to be intimate and sacred and that women were put on this earth to serve man. All ideas in the bible. The idea that the bible is better than any psychology or other text ever written is silly and makes taking other points you make somewhat difficult in regards to claims of specific evidence.

-Seeing God's Work I have seen, and have met people who have seen, miracles. Not the kind that can be easily explained away.

Gotcha.

-Personal experience A relationship with Jesus combined with the lessons in the bible complete humans more than anything imaginable, and I don't believe that's a result of chance. Become a Christian and pray with someone so accept the Love of Jesus and experience a high that's literally beyond description.

I've met plenty of people who use the bible to better themselves. I've met people who use fitness to better themselves. I've met people who use psychedelics to better themselves.

You're faith strikes me as a form of confirmation bias. you are here, so here you are. There is an egg, so there's a chicken. There isn't anything you've said I haven't heard, or told myself at 19, or that isn't a tired argument or excuse to keep the train running.

I guess a part of me hopes, in having these discussions, to learn something new about what makes people follow a faith. At the end of the day it is a combination of a compartmentalization of what you can't accept and a self belief in what can't be true. The idea that the bible can't be challenged as evidence along with a personal 'relationship' with a God can carry one their whole life in a veil of ideology.

I really appreciate you opening this discussion. I don't understand how you can hold many of those ideas as truths, but you do, just as I think that Road House is the greatest movie ever and that Sport Climbing is a reasonable way to spend my time.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Mar 29, 2016 - 12:53am PT

DMT, the type of christian you are referring to is a different type of christian than LC.

DMT, why are climbers just like you chipping holds and pulling vegetation? Why do climbers like you do that?

(I got this one bro)

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Mar 29, 2016 - 12:59am PT

ur pedantic ?s r bad n u shuld feel bad

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Mar 29, 2016 - 01:06am PT

As easily as my blessings could be blamed on God so could my hardships, and while I don't doubt many find some great ennui from his love I wonder how much is given back that couldn't be attributed to luck, preparation or the actual will of the human in charge.

Surely.

and your attitude of cause and effect is naturally natural. Well except for the "luck" thats exclusively scientific.

Are you thinking the blame should lie on your mom for giving you a christmas present that didn't work?