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JLundeen
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2016 - 11:35am PT
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I have not used one for simul climbing but if I did more of that for sure I'd be using them. If a factor 1 fall only causes sheath damage or worst case cuts through the sheath of a single rope, it seems like a reasonable trade off versus pulling the leader off and both climbers taking massive whippers (which could also cut the sheath and more...). Connect the second to the rope with a grigri and there really shouldn't be that much slack - certainly not enough to create a FF of 1, no?
I believe micro traxions were recently used while simul climbing by some big names in the sport, down in Patagonia. Seems like a good tool when used in the appropriate situation.
Exactly why I wanted to use one. Colon Haley said in a presentation that using the micro every 60m made him feel better about simuling 10+ with a heavy pack in Patagonia. Although, I still have yet to here a story about when the 2nd has ever fallen.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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This should be viewed as a step-up in safety above simple simul-ing.
An amalgam of old-school leader must not fall, with modern "back-ups".
Except the second "must not fall"
I know of one case of the second falling, between sickle and the stovelegs... this would have helped no doubt
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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I've used a Petzl Tibloc for this exact purpose and they work great. Very low drag on the rope as you climb past compared to other devices I've tried. I've had people say to me that the Tibloc can damage your rope if there's a fall when used like this but my reply is that the 2nd shouldn't be falling. It's a fail safe and that's it.
It works too, I had a friend fall on a 5.10c slab at Tahquitz while following behind me onto the Tibloc and it did no rope damage and I never felt the slightest tug.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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It works too, I had a friend fall on a 5.10c slab at Tahquitz while following behind me onto the Tibloc and it did no rope damage and I never felt the slightest tug.
Thank you for sharing that. It is an individual's risk to take, but good to hear of it working in practice for others. I heard of tiblocs and microtraxions used. I wonder if devices without teeth are safer in theory or in action.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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The tibloc seems to chew up ropes (sheath), more than any other.
The Petzl Shunt can severe a rope.
Another simul improvement is each climber using a prussic or gri gri as a tie-in, with a back-up, to allow quick self-belay possibilities
Also there is the continous-loop simul system, as above with both tail ends connected. Good with short-fixing, and if tagging gear
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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All this s h i t and some is covered in the Florine/Wright
book, granted there are newer devices but the TT&P's are the same
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David C
Trad climber
UK
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Re WC Ropeman
There are two flavours. The Mk 1 has "teeth" in the form of grooves across the cams. The Mk 2 has teeth similar to those found in a jumar. Both are toothed devices.
To learn the difference, zoom into the photos here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=4443
If you read the text in that link you will see that the Mk 2 with jumar like teeth was designed to be "more rope friendly" than the one with grooves. One reason for that is because it was found that with extensive use by instructors (rather than occasional jumaring by most users) those grooves can be worn into something closer to sharp knives. Simulclimbing could be classed as extensive use because you will be pulling miles of rope through the device.
(PS. I was sharing an office with Derek when he invented the ropeman.)
The way I think about it is this. Taking a factor 1 onto a toothed device is a bad idea. But if this could happen when simulclimbing then you are doing something wrong. The kind of place most people will be simulclimbing is when any fall would be more of slide down a slab than a free fall. Hence the force will be low, even if you slip near the microtrax - just don't let too much slack build up.
If you put enough force onto the microtrax to damage the rope in a dangerous way then without the microtrax you would have unquestionably pulled the leader off in a very violent way and likely to have hurt them. Minor damage to a rope in comparison is irrelevant, bit like complaining about a cam holding but having a bent stem after it just saved your life after a 100ft fall. Especially as the second falling when simulclimbing is such a rare event.
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franky
Trad climber
Madison, WI
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I am under the impression that devices with sharp teeth are probably preferable to those without. The sharp teeth may be more likely to damage the sheath in the event of a fall, but toothless devices will cut the rope entirely at relatively low forces. The simplified reasoning being that toothless devices are more aggressive to compensate for their lack of initial bite.
This is total hearsay and I don't have anything to back it up. I think there are some pull tests that show things like the toothless Ushba slicing ropes at relatively low forces.
I'm glad people started mentioning that sheath damage is preferable to massive double whippers.
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David C
Trad climber
UK
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The Duck does have teeth, in much the same way as the Mk 1 rope man - a series of toothed grooves.
Not saying it is bad device - I'd be happy to use it.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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On this day, as I was attempting to redpoint a climb that was a grade higher than my highest grade and I didn't want the extra rope drag of the safety line so I decided to use the single line.
Redpoint? Isn't he toproping?
Sincere thanks for the quality posts BB and David C
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David C
Trad climber
UK
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Hi BB,
Although of course an FF1 is possible if you get the route wrong, it seems to me the problem then is less with the idea of using a trax or other device, but not being sensible when and how to use it. If the route has a crux just before the traxion then place it before, or long after. And a slide down a slab won't create an FF1 as you are not in free fall. Not every route is ideal for simul climbing, just like the loose sh#t I climb on in the South of England isn't good for soloing.
PS. How's the winter been over your way? We have had the wettest winter in my memory in the UK.
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David C
Trad climber
UK
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is that the leader needs to recognize those parts where its the second may take a FF1 ... and put in a proper belay if needed
Agreed.
Sorry, can't come over your way this summer. Off to Greenland for bigger things, and bigger bears!
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Ahh I'm feeling more convinced. I got to order a couple of these suckers so we can finally man up and do the HD/NOSE link up one of these days....
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Mar 19, 2016 - 05:58pm PT
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that was cool there's also something to be said about having both climbers clipped in after the tie into a gri-gri so that they can feather their own slack or give each other a belay much quicker without having to fiddle with loading the device
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