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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Jan 20, 2016 - 01:16pm PT
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Erik:
to find an ancient buried rover and miraculously revive it's communication potential? Gimme a break)
Here's a quote from Micronut in the "Do you ever realize how dumb you actually are?" thread.....
I had a patient the other day (kind of a thoughtful, nerdy, geeky guy) and we were talking about the movie The Martian. He was telling me all about the book and I started asking him about a part in the movie when Matt Damon finds that old probe from years ago and uncovers it and uses the power in it to "phone home."
He says "yeah we build that with a solar setup so that it could charge itself and run for years but when it crashed the parachute covered the solar panels and eventually it got so dusty in Martian storms that it just died. That scenario in the film was quite realistic."
Turns out he is a JPL dude from back in the day and those Mars projects were his baby. Soooooooooo smart. We spend most of his appointments now gabbing on movies, string theory, wormholes and multidimensionality. All I know is from movies. He lets me know how dumb I really am. I love dudes like that.
They are the real 1%
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 20, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
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Great movie, love the scenery, the tension, the resourcefulness.
But.... The resources put into this movie's rescue mission amounts to pretty much all of the space budget and efforts of the space agencies of US and China, meaning that all other space missions, space science and space exploration is put on hold for, what, a year or two? Plus the initial resources put into the mission. This is a vast waste of money and resources. All the supposed science from this mission, collecting soil samples etc, is abandoned. It would have to be this way, of course, in real life. It'd be cruel and inhuman not to make heroic efforts to rescue someone.
In the days of sending people out to explore, say, the Arctic, or the Northwest Passage, the trials and suffering and eventual deaths were unseen. There was no communication. No rescue was possible. In today's world a stranded/injured human on Mars would be in everyone's living room, every day. A rescue would be mandatory.
Right there is one strong argument why sending real, live humans to Mars is a terrible idea, if any time there's a problem it's a human one and heroic efforts are required to rescue a stranded human with broken leg or ruptured appendix or whatever. Or advanced cancer, because there's no magnetic field to ward off radiation.
Given that perspective, this not a great promo for sending humans to Mars. In fact it spells out why robotic missions are far more worthwhile, a least for the foreseeable future.
As Erik suggests, let's learn to take better care of this planet.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2016 - 02:15pm PT
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One of the reasons the Mars Direct approach has more appeal than the German plan is in systems redundancy. If the vehicle going too Mars isn't overloaded with return fuel (the major weight component), a larger and more complete range of professions could be included, as wll as more food. I'm still looking for Zubrin's book in my "archives," (that huge stack of boxes containing literally hundreds of books without available shelf space), but my recollection is the plan for an ongoing presence on the planet; not just a quick 30 Sols stay, but for years with a complete team of scientists and support staff (medical & dental). The more I think about it, Andy Weir probably read Zubrin's book w/r to growing potatoes. It really amounts to having 3 teams involved simultaneously: one team on the way to Mars, and another returning during the optimal launch windows, and one team on the planetary surface doing science and building a base for permanent occupancy.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 20, 2016 - 03:17pm PT
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Ridley Scott's son Jake Scott (last sunday at joshua tree!)...
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 20, 2016 - 03:21pm PT
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Brokedown, that does sound like it could work.
Perhaps should not read too much into the movie's set up. NASA is so risk-averse that if it ever sent humans to land on Mars there'd be some kind of back up. A Mars orbiter with some rescue capabilities like a spare landing module? Or a rescue team and rocket on Earth, ready for take off at very short notice? Maybe both.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 20, 2016 - 04:42pm PT
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The film had many positive, inspiring narrative elements. Another was China's involvement and participation.
As to any real-life rescue mission of the future, funding wouldn't be a problem just as the film hints to. Thanks largely to social media, people and organizations would come forward in droves, and NASA's revenues would swell to whatever it took for such a rescue mission, perhaps 100 times or even more its current level.
One of the more realistic dramatic bits: "You goddamn coward."
bdc, a one-way journey to Mars? incl everything that would entail? Sign me up. :)
"It really amounts to having 3 teams involved simultaneously: one team on the way to Mars, and another returning during the optimal launch windows, and one team on the planetary surface doing science and building a base for permanent occupancy."
Sign me up.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 20, 2016 - 06:06pm PT
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Geeze Erik, a bran muffin might help, you should try one.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2016 - 07:36pm PT
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HFCS-
I'd sign up in a heartbeat if I could have a laboratory in situ, on the Martian surface. Unfortunately, by the time they get around to going--they won't want any geriatric astronauts. My doctorate, by the way, is in Physical Chemistry. I'd even become a Martian farmer or livestock manager (other things I've done).
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jan 20, 2016 - 08:04pm PT
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Really good movie. Wrote a detailed extra credit for my science students for the movie. They have to watch the movie, summarize it, answer specific questions regarding the story. One of which they have to speculate about what Astronaut botanist Watney said that got everyone bent out of shape. Lol.
They also have to listen to this really great interview that Adam Savage of Mythbusters does with Andy Weir, the author of the book, and answer specific questions.
Adam Savage Interviews 'The Martian' Author Andy Weir - The Talking Room
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5SemyzKgaUU
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Enjoy.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2016 - 08:45pm PT
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One of the things that the brilliant botanist didn't think of was utilization of the frozen greens from the potato plants to augment his otherwise miserable diet of potatoes. They should last almost indefinitely in the quick-frozen state and provide other vitamins and fiber for his digestive system.
Any major expedition should consider the agricultural potential of the planet. A much more efficient crop would be mangels, a variety of beet that is normally grown as livestock feed. If some livestock were also transported, a meat supply would be assured, manure used for agriculture, the beets grown for restoration of atmospheric oxygen in the habs, and removal of human and animal generated carbon dioxide. Yeah, using human schitt isn't a very attractive idea, but the city of Milwaukee already utilizes the sewage by conversion to a fertilizer called Milorganite. Human schitt, all sterilized by dewatering and high temperature drying.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 20, 2016 - 09:30pm PT
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So the city of Milwaukee has gone to sh!t.
Also you don't need meat .....
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
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I'm a carnivore, according to my dentition; I don't eat tofu.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 20, 2016 - 10:08pm PT
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Brokedown, don't blame Obama for canceling the Constellation Program and the Ares I
Blame me!
I might be the one person who has the most to blame for it being canceled, better sooner than later!
I was a member of the core systems engineering team for Constellation and spent years maintaining the huge spreadsheet of all the designed performance specifications across this complex program, participating in multiple design engineering teams and dozens of design telecoms daily, capturing specifications and requirements assumptions.
I also designed and managed developing a model-based systems engineering tool for the program called SimConstellation that allowed engineers to visualize that huge spreadsheet and manipulate parameters for optimization.
Late in the life of the program I presented these all around various departments at NASA Headquarters in DC. The fact is the program couldn't fly as designed. Specifically the Ares I launch vehicles couldn't adequately boost the Orion space vehicles into orbit. By the time I proved this the program was too far committed on impractical designs.
Early in the program I was a member of several of the design engineering teams: Program Requirements Design Team, Ares I Test Vehicle Design Team (which launched successfully), Computing Networking and Communications Team, Guidance Navigation and Control Team, Thrust Vector Control Systems, Fault Detection System, Launch Abort Systems, Landing Recovery Systems Teams. I was lead designer for the fault detection system of the Thrust Vector Control System and for the fault detection system for triggering the Launch Abort System, both of which are repurposed for the current follow-on NASA SLS Space Launch Systems program.
I also was also a key systems reviewer of the Rocketplane Kistler commercial orbital transportation system and identified five fatal design flaws, resulting in their NASA contract being cancelled.
I was also involved with systems design reviews for SpaceX vehicles delivering to the International Space Station under the COTS Commercial Orbital Transportation System. I greatly admire their designs. If I wasn't such a lazy curmudgeon I'd probably be still be working for SpaceX or for SpaceDev's Dream Chaser along with my younger energetic friends. I still get occasional briefings from various friends and team members
I loved The Martian book and the movie is pretty good too. Note the book was crowd-sourced over a period of years…i.e. published online and subject to extensive knowledgeable contributions and critiques from members of the aerospace community. The author did a great job of pulling together a morass of speculations and unknowns into an entertaining story.
I think it was Groucho Marx who stated that it is really hard to make predictions, particularly about the future.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 21, 2016 - 07:10am PT
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Yes, bdc, I knew already about your physical chemistry background. I've got a bit of chemistry (bio, mol) myself. it certainly contributes to an appreciation of the mars project expedition problem solving, I think.
SPOILER ALERT
Probably the strangest bit in the film for me was the decision not to tell the crew about Watney being alive right away and then also (2) Watney's immediate angry reaction. I don't know how realistic or necessary that reaction was and yet it added to the drama probably.
The other strange bit was having to be on a tether at all - during Watney's retrieval at Mars. Recall the film Gravity with Clooney and gang buzzing all around free solo.
I bet Moose's background in science contributed to his enjoyment of the film.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 21, 2016 - 09:39am PT
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One of the things that the brilliant botanist didn't think of was utilization of the frozen greens from the potato plants to augment his otherwise miserable diet of potatoes. They should last almost indefinitely in the quick-frozen state and provide other vitamins and fiber for his digestive system.
Isn't there some toxin in the leaves of regular potatoes?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2016 - 10:20am PT
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Tom-
Thanks for the input; the general impression presented by the "highly reliable media," (cough, chuckle, guffaw!) was a decision strictly based on the economics, and not the engineering. What you're saying is a flawed concept and original design of the Ares I booster (Thiokol-solid fuel based)? I'm personally a big fan of the Mars Direct concept and sending a robotic fuel generation system ahead, prior to sending any manned spacecraft.
Crunch-
I've been interested in the biochemistry-related problems in space travel, and radiation shielding was one of them. The shielding issue may be one of the more easily solved problems; dirt! Excavate a below surface habitat and then use the spoil from excavation over the top for shielding. Also provides insulation for retention of heat. I don't have any figures on the reduction of radiation by say--2 feet or 3 feet thick layer of dirt over the habitat? Also. isn't most of the incoming radiation alpha-particle based? My recollection is a single sheet of paper is adequate for stopping these particles; it was something like the thickness of a ream of paper to stop beta-particles. I am probably incorrect here, since any radiation physics was about 60 years ago. We sleep, do experiments on samples, and normal living activities below the surface, thereby reducing the radiation exposure by maybe 60-70%. Above ground, surface activities should have more robust protection built into the suits.
My specific area of interest was bone decalcification, and I actually was in the process of working up a research proposal to NASA involving synthetic peptide hormones to regulate the osteoblast-osteoclast balance, and a subsequent set of experiments which could be conducted at the International Space Station (by yours truly, of course!). Sadly, my wife's illness put that on permenant hold.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 21, 2016 - 11:26am PT
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The astronauts were recommending that Apollo capsules were too big and a smaller simpler spacecraft was recommended as safer and easier to fly.
A team that included John Young did a study on whether we could just dust off the old Apollo museum pieces and launch them on top of an Atlas V. The answer was yes from the physics perspective, but no from the people perspective, because not enough people around still know how to operate hardware engineered decades ago.
Personally I have for years recommended that if you are going to launch a big bowling ball, then you shouldn't ride down to the ground in the big bowling ball…get out and use a sport parachute…like Yuri Gagarin…
Of course the downside of that is astronauts turning into jelly fish after months in zero G…
We knew before Sputnik that a space station should spin and produce artificial Gs. For some reason that we won't discuss here in polite company, NASA never would sign up for that concept…one of the projects I worked on for ISS was the Centrifuge Accommodation Module…another long story...
i am a great fan of the DynaSoar program (X-20/X-21) that was cancelled in favor of Mercury/Gemini.
i was in a big meeting early in the program where Boeing and Lockheed were submitting competing bids for the Constellation spacecraft. Lockheed brought in a concept vehicle design based upon DynaSoar. They had hardly started their presentation when a senior manager broke in and stated that Constellation was going to use a capsule-based space craft…to the great chagrin of the Lockheed team. Obviously I personally think that was a big mistake...so was never invited into the Orion team meetings…(there's your 'economic' reasons)
The huge Orion capsule then much later proved too heavy to lift upstairs, hence the death of the Constellation Program…:-(
And the birth of the SLS Program to launch that huge Orion capsule…
So NASA thrashes while SpaceX soars...
SpaceDev is now about ready to launch their DynaSoar-based spacecraft and enough people have forgotten Constellation that NASA recently awarded a big contract to them for deliveries to ISS
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 21, 2016 - 11:33am PT
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Hollywood loves the MMU, but NASA doesn't…canceled it's use as too dangerous after using it on three shuttle missions in 1984.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 21, 2016 - 11:38am PT
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The ATK (Thiokol) solid fuel booster is fine and a well tested successful launch system. I spent quite a bit of time going through their entire Utah plant and manufacturing process including a booster test burn. You just have to respect their lift capacity and not try to build a space craft heavier than its capacity to launch.
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