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jstan
climber
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:04pm PT
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Many years ago I was using nylon containers to fire semiconductor samples into the nuclear reactor at the National Bureau of Standards. When they came back out they set off every alarm bell in the receiving cell. The radiation technician asked me what the containers were. (All the parts in the experiment had been preapproved so we in the cell were just trying to figure out why the high levels of radiation.) He said, "Oh, that's it. The nylon still has the catalyst in it and that has a high cross section for thermal neutrons." Later when we were doing a study on rope strength I learned nylon has a shelf life. Correct or not, I put the two together and suspect the chemical reaction may still be continuing in nylon products.
When climbing I never used a seat harness. They are too complicated.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:06pm PT
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This is *really*, *really* unfortunate and very sad. I've seen one peice of soft (nylon) gear fail before and it was the exact same scenario that is being proposed/reported here. There was discussion between me and the other climber about the condition of his gear earlier in the day of the climb/accident. The climber fell and the questionable piece of gear broke. Luckily, he only sustained a couple of broken bones, so I still have a friend and climbing partner, his parents still have a child, etc., etc.
If nothing else, this can certainly serve as a reminder for all of us to check out our gear and make sure it is sound and to replace *anything* that is even remotely close to questionable, be it in condition or age. Our lives are worth more than anything we own.
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10b4me
Trad climber
California
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:10pm PT
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fwiw, I never use the belay loop for rapping. I always put the waist belt and crotch* thought the locking carabiner.
when I started climbing, belay loops did not exist. I just feel safer with the biner clipped to the waistbelt. I mean, we tie into the waistbelt.
the backup swami is also a good idea.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:18pm PT
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It was not a Bod harness that "failed" when it was not doubled back. I don't remember the model name, but I stopped using the one I had! And the newly created BD stopped making them.
Was a Culp Alpine Harness. Black webbing with yellow trim. I still have mine. Worked fine (still would). I'd wear one again, same design, no problem. Not as nice as the current Bod, IMHO, but, a neat lightweight design. Still has a buckle to double back. And, I recall, two tie in loops on either side of the buckle, so, maybe safer than a BOD or Belay loop in that regard (ie, if you tie into the loops, the buckle becomes kinda moot).
Kate, really? Wow, you must climb a TON! That's an amazing amount of wear.
I have a hard time retiring some harnesses myself. And some climbing partners are even worse. Finally got a friend to quit wearing her worn out JRAT harness, by buying her a new BD harness.
I have a Yates with two belay loops. Like the two loops, really dislike the two buckles (Shield).
-Brian in SLC
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:18pm PT
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I think people are jumping to conclusions before the facts are in. Rapping is a body-weight force. A belay loop is rated to 30+ kn.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:20pm PT
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I’ve cut all of the belay loops off of my harnesses and replaced them with locking beiners. Had one wear prematurely on a caving harness and have just done it ever since. I’m sure that there are reasons this shouldn’t be done, but it’s just always seamed a bit more bomber to me.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
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Hey Brian:
I've worn this harness with the perlon loop being used as the fifi connection for about five years. I can't tell you how many perlon loops I've worn through, but here's part of why it happens.
I knot the perlon loop so that the fifi is on an isolated point in the loop. It is like an infinity symbol with a big loop around the tie ins and a small tight loop around the biner which I use as a fifi. This means that when I go from sitting on the pro, with the fifi pointing up to standing with the pro with the fifi pointing down, each time the perlon loop "saws" at the tie in points if its weighted Folks who use a biner as a fifi may be doing the same thing...its better to girth the loop to the harness than just use an oval with a fixed point for the biner.
Also, the belay loop/perlon loop are always having to scoot past one another every time one, then the other, is weighted. I feel this happen, like biner shift but not as harsh, one pushes the other out of the way.
So no, I don't climb a ton, I just climbed (unknowingly, at first) with a setup that resulted in excessive wear on my gear. Did I figure it out at first? No...but I figured it out when I started wondering what the heck was going on with my tie-ins. I won't do it this way on my next go-around with a harness. And I've decided that next go-around will start about now.
-Kate.
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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:33pm PT
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Unless I'm mistaken, most belay loops are in the neighborhood of 4400lbs. breaking strength, similar to one inch webbing, which is something like 20kN or thereabouts. The remainder of the harness is about 3500 lbs.
Regardless, either way the body and dynamic rope should act as a load limiter and keep impact forces well below this level. The point here isn't strength, it's redundancy.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:45pm PT
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Strength plays a large role in what we decide to back up. I don't use two single ropes because I know it will never break on its own. I don't use two belay loops because I know it will never fail on its own.
A problem I have seen is when I am making a rap with many ledges I am constantly weighting and unweighting the system. My rap biner has a tendency to rotate when I am unweighed and cross-load when I re-weight the system. I could easily see how this could un-lock a locking biner and cause a bad day.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:49pm PT
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It surprises me how often I see climbers, especially men, with waist belts that aren't snug enough. Relaxed fit, I guess. The chance of falling upside down, and having the waist belt pull over one's hips, isn't great, but it does exist, especially if it's overhanging, or you're wearing even a small pack or rack. And boys don't have hips, while girls do.
It also surprises me how many antique harnesses can be seen, especially at gyms. I've even seen Whillans harnesses, not so long ago - and they haven't been sold for 15 or 20 years. Usually not tied in correctly, either.
I believe that there have been tests on nylon products used for climbing, that show that they lose several percent of their strength each year - even if never taken out of the bag. Which correlates with jstan's comments. (If I remember, it started with a rope company that found some quite old ropes in storage, in their original bags, and tested them.)
So much also depends on wear and tear, falls, abuse, and other factors that can't be easily measured. Which is why the industry can only offer general cautions about when to retire gear.
I believe that the belay loop on any harness that is CE/UIAA approved must test at over 20 kN. But that's when new, and it may be one of the faster wearing parts. The idea of backing it up, especially as the harness ages, makes sense.
Anders
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:57pm PT
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Kate...Thanks for all the info re: two loops.
On thing that I do sometimes is clip in to the anchor or belay off of both the belay loop and my rope tie in. This doesn't help on rappel...but I've never worried about rapping as much because "it's only body weight". This is all really spooky.
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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Oct 25, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
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Strength plays a large role in what we decide to back up. I don't use two single ropes because I know it will never break on its own. I don't use two belay loops because I know it will never fail on its own.
A problem I have seen is when I am making a rap with many ledges I am constantly weighting and unweighting the system. My rap biner has a tendency to rotate when I am unweighed and cross-load when I re-weight the system. I could easily see how this could un-lock a locking biner and cause a bad day.
A lot of things factor into what we decide to back up. I climb on a single rope because it's very averse to *failure*, not because of its excessive strength. Dynamic ropes are very strong, but in addition to that their dynamic properties act as a built-in load limiter, prevent me from getting injured (cliff geometry notwithstanding), and the kern-mantle construction makes the rope resistant to cuts from abrasion.
Nonetheless, I still have to back the rope up. I have to keep an eye on its run - is it hanging over any sharp edges that would sever it in a fall? If so, why wasn't that edge padded when it was lead past by myself or my partner? Things like that.
I am not so concerned with the strength of climbing gear (because, as noted, past a certain point, it's largely an academic matter) as with whether or not the system will fulfill its intended *function* of arresting a fall, any fall. In a lot of cases this doesn't hinge on strength but on redundancy or proper equipment use. Yes, strength plays a factor, but again that's not what we're after here. We know belay loops ought to be strong enough. The question is, if circumstances arise such that it *isn't*, or it fails for some other reason, what's the plan B? Dying is not acceptable to me.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 03:12pm PT
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LArry,
I don't want a fight but I was buyer at a climbing shop at the time of this accident (the guide un did his harness, too take a leak and did not double it back). I remember it being the Alpine Bod Harness with the double plate buckle. You double back between the plates.
If I am incorrect, please show it.
Anyway, it is not critical to this topic.
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 25, 2006 - 03:16pm PT
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The belay loop and tie-in points are strong, when new.
When it is used, on every lower or rap, the harness gets nylon on nylon wear at least on the tie-in loops and possibly on the belay loop. I moved my first harness to gym only use when the wear was observable (5 yrs?).
All that said, a harness costs at most about 1/3 the cost of the ropes we replace every couple years or so - less than a large cam. It is probably safe to consider the visible layer of nylon to be a sacrificial layer, which when visibly worn, warrants replacement. (IMO, anyway)
Or at about 25,000 miles of driving. Costs about the same as oil changes at that rate?
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Oct 25, 2006 - 03:32pm PT
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Regarding belay loops, here's something else I've been wondering about.
I've been using a BD harness with a red belay loop for 6 years, other than a brief stint with a Misty Caddy that was stolen. The belay loop has four bar tacks. When I got it, it was bright red, now it is light pink, the bar tacks are lighter, too. Also, the single line of stitching around the belay loop gave out long ago, meaning I can separate the three strands of the belay loop with my fingers. I assume maybe the nylon in this single stitching degraded from light?
Due to wear on the structural part of the leg loops (I spend more time sitting than climbing), I retired it and bought a petzl.
The petzl has only two bar tacks on the belay loop. As I recall, my sewn nylon runners have 3-4.
Is it possible that this reduced number of bar tacks could eventually matter, as UV damages the stitching in the bar tacks making it less strong? It bugged me that there were only two bar tacks. I seem to recall only two on the Misty, as well.
Anyway, its probably not important, but under the circumstances its an interesting discussion.
-Kate.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 03:37pm PT
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Good that everybody is getting emotional about this but lets be careful.. There is no law or mandated experation statistic we can put onto the manufacturers about the product that will guarantee safety.
The reality is you can buy a harness today, and need to retire it tomorrow if the wrong series of events take place.
The great thing about our gear is it typicaly talks to us. The integrity of Todds harness was in discussion (allegedly). Caribiners show cracks at pins, or grooves in the bends, webbing freys ar becomes stiff. Ropes have their signs etc.
We all choose to do a great sport that cannot guarantee safety, I don't care what regulations we have. We have to care for our selves and make critical evaluations of EVERYTHING involved, weather, gear, partners etc.
Now lets all hold onto this relaity check and take a look at our pratices and our gear.
I know I have been thinking about a few hurried raps that were uneventful but should have been looked at more closely before casting off.
Goods times everybody, live well and long.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 03:38pm PT
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Kate:
I fully agree, those two tacks that Petzl uses does seem like it is pushing the limits. I do love Petzl harnesses, especially the buckle that cannot be misbuckled. And I have no huge concern for myself, because I'm sure two tacks are plenty strong when new and I do not let any plastic gear, including ropes, get old. But I sure see lots of people using gear far longer than I, and more tacks would sure seem safer! I'm guessing that harness sales will surge during the next few weeks...
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NoRushNoMore
climber
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Oct 25, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
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How about a diff idea altogether?
The urine normally contains dissolved solids, about 60% of which are organic substances such as urea, uric acid, creatinine, and ammonia; and 40% of which are inorganic substances such as sodium, chloride, calcium, potassium, phosphates, and sulfates. Its reaction is usually acid (pH 6)
Point here is each time you take a piss if any part of it gets on your harness you are affecting nylon strength. And belay loop is the closest part of the harness to the action.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Oct 25, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
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GouhlweJ:
Excellent point about how our gear talks to us. Anecdotal evidence is that in Todds case, his partner may have talked to him, too.
I've had several partners who climb on hot pink (now very light pink) quickdraws from (what must be) the 80s, and I've reprimanded for saying *anything*, as well as laughed at for being, basically, a silly little noob who depends on my gear, not my climbing, to keep me safe.
Well, maybe people people might start to listen more to not just their gear, but also their partners that love them.
Honestly, I've got to admit that I was a little embarassed thinking of wearing my new petzl harness that looks like it came from outer space when I'm climbing with people I've looked up to for years before I even *met* them who are being lowered off of climbs hanging from their rib cages in 15+/- year old swami belts.
Say something to these folks and you look/feel like an ass. Lose one of them and remember why you never said anything? You're going to feel way worse. Talk about gear that makes you uncomfortable, even if you heros are going to shut you down. You might be wrong, you might be overly cautious, but oh well.
And if you're one of those heros and you're reading this? Know that the noobs who give you grief are doing it b/c they care about you.
-Kate.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:00pm PT
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some FYI, not really related to the TS situation:
Never liked the belay loop thing as the single point of contact.... I'm smart enough to know it is bomber (when new) but I still don't really like it, for no good reason.
As for bartacks on loops and slings and such:
A bartack (without going into it) is good for about a 1000lbs. on a single strand to single strand bond.
FISH slings usually have between 8 and 10 tacks for the bond. The loop itself should fail around 6000lbs.... so you get a few extra tacks for things like wear, UV, etc.
FISH belay loops are 1" tube that is wrapped double all the way around on itself and is 3x thick at the overlap section. Total bartacks in the loop is usually about 10 and there is all the way around the donut stitching at least 5 or 6 times around the circumference. The testing machine could not break the donut when they were tested (10K limit?) Point being, those loops take a lot of wear and I always thought that having a lot of extra bond on there just made sense. I recall a while back that BD or someone showed a guy hanging on a belay donut only held together with some strips of duct tape..... point being there is more friction on the belay donut between the looped on itself webbing than on a single strand to single strand bond as found on a standard sling. So.... maybe a few tacks in the belay donut gives a good enough bond to achieve the desired strength?
Locker style edit:
Hey Kate, Quit crumming on my swami ya n00b!!! ;)
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