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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
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Hard to believe that didn't just fall out as soon as he touched it
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:23pm PT
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WoW!
what a problem those old bolts can be.
thanks for the share greg!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
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Kris... re Church Dome failed 3/8 BH ..... IIRC is was on "Jacobs Ladder"...
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2015 - 02:32pm PT
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Yeah, buttonheads spall certain rock types, my thought was that was from the first few taps when installing the bolt. Don't ever try them on limestone, instant big spalling.
I'm not sure on how the fractures happen. That 1/4" of mine that I replaced last year after a winter was cracked 95% of the way and broke with nearly zero force. But I had definitely hung on that bolt the year before (put up the route rope-solo), so it hadn't cracked instantly on installation. In that case it was in a water streak from a ledge, so I think freeze/thaw had a lot to do with it. But maybe it was cracked a little bit on installation, and the crack propagated over the winter.
The only other 1/4" of mine that did the same thing was cracked about 2/3 of the way through, but it was fairly remote and I replaced it last summer after 8 years on the rock. And I had not hung on that after placing it, so it could have been cracked upon installation.
You see lots of 1/4" that are cracked/break easily during replacement. Who knows how many were cracked when.
Another place where 3/8" split-shaft are somewhat common is steep sport routes at Pinnacles - threaded head split-shaft.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
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Thanks to Dan and Marty for going out there today, that was a big service to the community.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:54pm PT
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Greg, I remember that that was the type of bolts still on La Bella Luna on Fairview as of last summer. Could be another candidate for replacement.
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Tony Puppo
climber
Bishop
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:57pm PT
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There may be quite a lot of those 5/16 in Whitney Portal
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:58pm PT
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I'd like to know if a rawl R marked bolt head or one of the fixe bunk ones.
photo maybe?????
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Sam Lightner, Jr
Social climber
WY
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Mar 17, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
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Great thread Greg.
It is easy for us to forget that most of the time when we are on the 1st through 4th bolt we really only have one piece between us and the ground. This is especially the case with the "soft-catch".
In my mind, it actually doesn't matter what type of bolt it was, but more what the condition of the bolt was. Obviously it had held people before. It failed now. If it failed because of corrosion or stress corrosion cracking, then it shows that the gorge is not immune from this problem. If a climbing area on the lee side of the Sierras and the edge of one of the driest deserts in North America has corrosion, then everyplace has corrosion. Thus, we should replace everything that isn't SS. That is pretty much every bolt placed before 1995.
For what it's worth, I have replaced a few hundred bolts in the last two years, many of which were 5 piece galvanized from the late 80's and early 90's. Every one of them was heavily corroded, and 15 snapped off while I was unscrewing them.
Our 25 year old bolts are finished. We need to replace the whole country.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Mar 17, 2015 - 03:15pm PT
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Thx Greg.
I'm hitting Courtright over Memorial Day weekend.
If you get any confirmed routes with 5/16ths around the reservoir I'll make an effort to replace. Might be able to recruit some others to help.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2015 - 03:44pm PT
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I'd like to know if a rawl R marked bolt head or one of the fixe bunk ones. Rawl ones were made both with the R and without. The era (1992) means it was definitely a Rawl as the Fixe ones did not show up for another 10-15 years?
Obviously it had held people before. Actually Sam, this spot in the Gorge is visited so rarely that it may never have been weighted by a climber. But as far as Our 25 year old bolts are finished. We need to replace the whole country. …I'm afraid that you are correct. In many places people are doing exactly that.
If you get any confirmed routes with 5/16ths around the reservoir I'll make an effort to replace. Might be able to recruit some others to help.
Thanks for the offer Munge. But I should warn you that you may regret the offer, 2 hours into trying to remove the very first one! The only 5/16" buttonhead that I pulled easily at Courtright was on Spring Dome and the rock was fractured below the hanger.
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Ben909
Trad climber
toronto
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Mar 17, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
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Sam, the catastrophic results of bolts 1-4 failing holds true for normal lead climbing but with proper techniques for aid soloing the failure of bolts 3 and 4 can result in safe falls.
Most people who stick clip aid solo their way up something will anchor to the ground or first bolt and backup to the second. They go in direct to each bolt and feed out slack to clip their rope to the next. This method will still result in you hitting the ground in the event of a failure of bolts 1-4, because you'll be sitting at bolt 2 with slack going up to and back from bolt 3.
What I proposed, which maybe you misunderstood on FB (it's not much higher brow than YouTube comments, maybe you were skimming), is for the climber to stick clip subsequent bolts with the other end of the rope, and ascend to each bolt while feeding out slack from their lead system. This has a few advantages: you get to bounce on the next bolt while you have a bolt at your waist and zero slack in the system, and you never go above a bolt without being clipped to the next one. This means that if a bolt blows at the worst moment (when you've ascended to it) you're belay is below it and the slack in the system (even with a touch of extra) doesn't exceed the distance between the bolts. Obviously, if bolt spacing at #3 is extreme, this can still result in a ground fall. It would also mean that the route is bolted in such a way that falling at bolt #3 without any bolt failure is not safe. However, there are many instances where this will not result in a ground fall even if bolt #2 blows. The disadvantage is that you need another ascender or you need to belay yourself on a clove hitch to free up the grigri for ascending. Not overly demanding for the safety tradeoff.
I share your concern with the current state of bolts worldwide. I have visited Cuba a couple of times and am now under the impression that the whole island needs to be rebolted. Still, I see this accident as a fall caused by a bolt failure and a ground fall caused by an inappropriate self belay system.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Mar 17, 2015 - 04:22pm PT
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Solem and Laeger and I put up lots of routes at Courtright with 5/16 button heads. I suspect most routes on Penstemon, Dusy and Voyager have 5/16 button head bolts.
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 17, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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Sam Lightner said: ......"5 piece galvanized from the late 80's and early 90's. Every one of them was heavily corroded, and 15 snapped off while I was unscrewing them."
I had a steel 3/8" diameter Powers 5 piece snap off trying to just UNSCREW it. Saw a tad bit of rust on the head, I had installed it no more than 5 years previously, so thought I'd replace it with stainless which I had a lot of at the time. It had rusted so badly internally in just a few years, that the (not visible) threads were rusted in place and it snapped right where the threads meet the body. I was shocked. I think the 5 piece steel are ticking time bombs.
As far as the Rawl split shanks. I have heard that back in the 70's I believe, they had a 1/4" diameter batch that missed both heat treat and QC and which had Hydrogen Embrittlement caused by electroplating. They were failing under little more than body weight. I have not been able to confirm that via the internet. In my view generally split shank construction bolts and tough little beasts with long lifes and good performance.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 17, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
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But I prefer wedge bolts and have much more confidence in their placement integrity and longevity.
I have been placing one of each on anchors. 3/8sx3 3/4 double wedge SS from Fixe are the best bolt I've placed IMO.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 17, 2015 - 05:03pm PT
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So we re-learn the lesson from 1975??? Never trust one bolt with your life, unless your life depends on it.
sad thing this needed to be re-learned in 2015.
very sad.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Mar 17, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
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Thought I'd comment on this quickly:
There may be quite a lot of those 5/16 in Whitney Portal
I'm inclined to think there may not be as many as one might expect. JW and I replaced over 500 bolts in the Portal (thanks entirely to ASCA! - Greg) That number is from the last detailed notes I could find quickly and is certainly under the total number actually replaced. Myles is still replacing in the Portal as well so that would add to the overall number.
Almost all the bolts we replaced in the Portal were 1/4", not many 5/16". It seems Bartlett and Slate (the most prolific early drillers) were inclined to predominately use 1/4", with 5/16" showing up mainly at Moonstone. Man I hated those 5/16".
I'm sure there are still some around in the Portal though, don't mean to sound like I'm saying there aren't any. Pick a route that hasn't been replaced and one might end up shaking in their boots.
One last comment. Replace enough bolts and you start to realize that it isn't all that uncommon to see this exact kind of failure. I've seen a number of them. Even if it was only 1 in 100 I don't like those odds.
Truly an unfortunate and sad accident.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 17, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
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If Scott had his rope remain clipped into his lower bolts would he still have hit the ground when the bolt he was on broke?
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
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Werner, it seems very likely that if he had been clipped into the second bolt, either in direct, or through it with a lower upward pull anchor, he would not have hit the ground. It probably would not have been a great fall depending on how much slack was out, but much better than going to the ground.
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