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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Jan 20, 2015 - 07:13am PT
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Wait, so this is some new style? swinging around and putting gear where it's needed? I think this top-secret technology has been known to us lessers for some time now.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver, Colorado
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Jan 20, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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Definitely a paradigm shift, as was Alex Honnold's big wall soloing. Different visions of the future, but equally valid.
When I saw the title of this thread, I thought there was going to be a new rule that I can't put gear in my mouth anymore. Luckily, there are no rules.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 20, 2015 - 12:31pm PT
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Don, but there are rules, and there are land managers. Most of the rest is style, but those areas where as DMT puts it "Its a matter of resource allocation." is where ethics lies.
I recently saw that "all ethical issues are ego issues" or something similar. Had to think about it a bit, and yes, in the same sense that politics is war pursued by other means. Perhaps climbing ethics is politics pursued by other means.
In any event, we don't get to just do whatever we want, but there are permissible transgressions to the tradition. Things do change, but as Healyje says, does it translate to the local crag?
The challenge for the future for big lines is right there for the strong and talented.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver, Colorado
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Jan 20, 2015 - 03:23pm PT
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Munge, I'd say no rules, unless you're referring to things like trespassing, or damaging the rock by chipping holds and placing bolts. Otherwise, climb any way you want. As long as they're honest about how they did it, its revolutionary and time will tell if theirs is the way of the future.
* Also, I agree about resource allocation. Why put up a route no one will ever repeat? The goal should be to set a route that lots of people want to repeat. I think these guys did that, even though the route seems impossibly hard.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 20, 2015 - 03:44pm PT
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Lots of really hard free routes have been dogged. This is just another free line on El Cap only it ups the ante on ratings.
The only reason that we are talking about it is because it was skillfully packaged as a media event.
The general public still don't have clue #1.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 20, 2015 - 03:57pm PT
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To that end, does hanging on a fixed line change the ascent when establishing fixed gear for the free ascent?
Change the free ascent? Yes. Change the outcome? Yes. Is it better to place the bolt GU while trying to free someone's route? Probably not.
I'd say every situation depends on the nature of the route and the players. If the FA party thinks the route will be a rad aid line and would not ever go free or would suck as a free climb they should voice their opinions.
The guys who are trying to free the route should probably aid the sections where bolts may be required prior to placing them, to see if the protection bolt would actually be necessary. If the moves don't go than why place it? That would change the aid route and people don't usually like when someone changes their vision.
If you did aid it, the moves went free and the FA party allowed you to add the bolt than make sure you picked the best spot for it and do as you want. Since you top roped the pitch to see if the moves would go, the mystery is sort of lost. The only mystery for most GU FFAs is if the moves will go free, not if the line will top out, not the gear (if they got the beta). So I think it doesn't matter if they add bolts from their fixed line or from a stance after lowering down and pulling their line. The moves are already rehearsed. If placing a bolt from a stance (on a rehearsed pitch) would make you feel good, go for it. If you don't care, it doesn't matter. What matters is the personal satisfaction from what you have done and if you are doing a service to those who come after. Hopefully you are trying to do quality job not just for yourself but for those who will hopefully climb it after you have your experience.
True mystery only exists on the first ascent, or other ascents that happen without knowing anything about the cliff or the route. To get the first ascent experience or first winter ascent experience you don't always have to do one. So FAs are generally a lot more important. But FFA do a big service to the community as well. Seems like modern climbers repeat new aid routes with intention to free them mostly. When people go for aid lines, they usually go for the established historic classics, a few do the difficult ones with a lot of history, and some obscure ones too. But usually, just like with free climbs people seek to repeat things done by bad ass climbers. When it comes to free climbing in the Sierra Croft and Nettle are just a few who come to mind. Seems like if you want to have people climbing your route, try to pick a route that can go free with good quality of rock. If you don't care, get out there and have a blast following the rules that seem appropriate and in line with ethics and style you want to follow. Have a good time with your mates and don't get mangled is a good rule to follow.
So where was I...f*#k talking about climbing, I will go climb now. After I check my facebook...
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jan 20, 2015 - 04:33pm PT
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It is amazing how Tommy can shine in different styles. Witness the Fitzroy traverse, as alpine as can be, vs Dawn Wall siege.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 20, 2015 - 09:46pm PT
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It will be like watching a biography at the next Reel rock. haha
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mission
Social climber
boulder,co
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Jan 22, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
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Some of you old whippersnappers will remember Jim Erickson, who did the first free ascent of the Naked Edge and also the first free ascent of the Northwest Face of Half Dome, albeit maybe a little bit piecemeal. He considered falling (and being caught by the rope) to be a form of aid. To this day he refuses to hangdog and work routes, even at the Movement.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Jan 22, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
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^^^ Who you calling old ? Signed former, whippersnapper.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 23, 2015 - 06:53am PT
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To this day he refuses to hangdog and work routes, even at the Movement.
As if this is strange?
I also think this is one the source of a lot of confusion in climbing around the bifurcation of the sport into trad and sport. The wide misconception is that both the split and a distinction between the two all revolves around bolts. Nothing could be further from the truth from my perspective - it was all about tactics, not bolts.
The embrace of dogging up routes as the 'standard' protocol / tactic of sport climbing is the only distinction that matters to me. And while I find the rapacious bolting of every rock with in a three hour drive of urban centers odious, it's the dogging up stuff I find tedious at best and holds zero appeal for me.
I mean really, let's reduce climbing to a gerbil wheel of hang, hang, hang, hang, send, 'next!' in a loop. Crikey, anyone can hang their way up a climb working it to death given the 'will' and enough time. Every hang is the equivalent of bringing the ground up to you - it's essentially 'aerial bouldering' and I personally think routes done with the tactic should have been given an 'AB' suffix back when things bifurcated.
Between the gerbil wheeling and the chalk further reducing climbing to a 'let's not think climb-by-the-dots' exercise I almost fail to get the appeal.
Thanks, but no thanks. Not my thing.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Jan 23, 2015 - 09:35am PT
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yeah that would be considered aids
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Jan 23, 2015 - 12:44pm PT
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it's the dogging up stuff I find tedious at best and holds zero appeal for me.
Yep.
The gymnastic athleticism that dogging produces is inarguable.
Spontaneous expression of life force, elan, and self-mastery has the richest juice. Kauk and Barber have been that; Honnold is that. At least for me and I think there are a good number of other climbers that feel that way, too.
It's not better than dogging. Just gives me more satisfaction.
If It takes more than 5-6 falls on something, I'm not up to it. I'd rather train up and come back when I can do it cleaner.
When I find I'm at the point I'm working a route, I start daydreaming about skiing, rafting, surfing, hiking, and enjoying my wife's company! ;-)
But, then I'm just an old, fat ass trad. Pick the style that gives you the most juice, have fun, be safe, and leave the playground in good shape for everyone else.
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Barney Rubble
Trad climber
ALAMEDA
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Jan 23, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
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The style debate rages on as it has since the beginning of time, as it should.
It’s hard to debate that the boys have built some impressive fitness with all that work. There’s a post on Tommy’s Facebook page to the effect that he and Alex knocked off a one day ascent of El Corazon on his way into the valley to work the Dawn Wall. The Fitzroy Traverse was an inspired bit of climbing done in fine style as well. What’s next?
We all need to acknowledge that we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. Tommy and Kevin represent some giant size shoulders leading the next generation to do what we can’t yet imagine.
It’s a beautiful thing…
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 23, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
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Relax
Everything always comes full circle eventually in Time ......
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Jan 24, 2015 - 06:16am PT
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A Jim, yes and no. I climb with a group of younguns (20 somethings) out here in Arizona that are quite good and are perpetuating the ideal of onsight as the highest expression of the art. Doesn't mean that they don't work stuff, but they know magic when they see it.
That ideal is an artistic and stylistic expression that isn't limited to old, fat ass, has been, "BITD" trads like me.
Just 'cuz the other style is marketed 'cuz it sells stuff doesn't mean it's the only game. How much of the popularity of the sport climbing type game is due to marketing by climbing gyms, gear and clothing manufacturers, and myriad companies selling stuff that has nothing to do with climbing because they want to attach the coolness factor of climbing to their product?
It's all a game and not everyone is playing the same game. Caldwell and many gifted others play multiple climbing games and play them well.
Some young and old prefer not to play the dogging game because they don't find it satisying. Doesn't mean the dogging game isn't a legitimate climbing game, just not the only one.
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