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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 27, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
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rj,
thanks for the reply.
Just curious, if you wanted to, could you (1) restore the original Dr. F science v religion thread? and (2) nuke just the original post to "archive" it?
Out on a limb...
I appreciate what additional info you can offer in this regard.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 27, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
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Seems reasonable to me. (Ran a corporation for 20 years.)
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 27, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
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Thanks for clarifying RJ. I agree using services provided by ST to drive participation elsewhere is whack. Another forum on someone's website ain't a bad idea, but based on the posts and posters who feel compelled to leave/start anew, I would prefer the current content on ST ;)
More TR's please, everyone!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 27, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
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Given that this forum exists as part of a for-profit corporation, canceling folks who use the service to compete against you seems legit. There is no entitlement or rule that the forum must exist for the betterment of humanity or providing equal access to free speech on any topic. That it does so most of the time is a privilege, not a right, that we enjoy.
The idea of admins hanging out reading messages sent privately between forum members did seem pretty creepy to me, but RJ's explanation gave a pretty reasonable context for why that would happen in this case.
Thanks RJ for the explanation even when you are not required to do so. It makes me feel more comfortable using the service to understand the manner in which it is maintained.
There was a time a few years back when I was distracting myself with learning how the HTTP protocol works in more detail, and started messing around with hand-crafted packets, for example to bypass the client-side web form controls, and change what type of climber I showed up as. Pure intellectual curiosity on my part, absent of any malice and no harm done to the site, but I was definitely meddling with things that could have been destructive if I had bad intent, because I was poking around at holes in the server-side security. RJ exercised pretty reasonable judgement and courtesy asking me to stop, which I did, and I provided some little feedback on closing that hole, and I had no problems after that.
I have to say RJ's balance of enforcement and restraint was very reasonable in that, the only case for which I know all the details.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 27, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
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So here's a left field question: RJ, why is the member to member email not working half the time?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Oct 27, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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Awanee Bartender. You are a hero.
FWIW , I have also copied the deleted posts.
All power to the people.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Oct 27, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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Re: High Fructose:
Just curious, if you wanted to, could you (1) restore the original Dr. F science v religion thread? and (2) nuke just the original post to "archive" it?
Not easily, but I have it on my to do list. The deletion of the science v. religion thread was accidental collateral damage.
There is some backstory here that may help place this in context.
As you'll recall, in September the site was increasingly being attacked by professional spammers. To help fight them off, we implemented a one-click nuke capability which removes the spammers post and the entire spam thread. This was something of a fire-fighting tool while we worked on developing a more sustained approach. We spent some time performing analysis to determine exactly who was spamming the site, how, and how we might best stop it.
In early October, we went live with an enhanced anti-spamming release of the site software, which has has been relatively successful in preventing spam on the site. For example, in the last 20 days, there has been only one report of spam on the Death to Spammers thread. I'm not going to explain in detail what we did in our update, because it might help spammers figure out ways to bypass it.
This more aggressive nuke capability was still in place when Dr. F. was removed, and that resulted in the science v. religion thread to be deleted by accident. Unfortunately, that deletion mechanism is permanent, and so there is no easy way to restore the thread. But, it still might be possible with a bit of work.
Historic Thread Preservation
Since then, additional code has been added to SuperTopo to protect historic threads from being inadvertently deleted. Once a thread gets 300 posts, it is now considered "historic" and our administrative mechanisms to delete posts will leave the OP of historic posts in place even if the person's other posts are removed. While there may come a day when some special circumstance causes us to remove a thread of more than 300 posts, we don't anticipate that will ever occur. Our intention is to codify a policy which respects and protects threads which have significant community participation.
Regarding Survival's Q:
So here's a left field question: RJ, why is the member to member email not working half the time?
Sometimes email systems block the member-to-member emails because they think they are spam. Depending on the system, the messages may end up in a spam folder or get blocked at the server level. Since the recipient isn't expecting the message, they may not check their spam folder.
rj
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2014 - 04:33pm PT
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I understand that ST would not want a competing business utilizing this site or allow any activity that would damage ST. I also get that the forum and messaging function are provided by ST and that I should not expect total privacy. What disturbs me is that RJ says that they
...do periodically spot check...
I may be wrong, but that implies that they are basically acting like Big Brother, and looking in whenever they damn well feel like it. Is that legal? Yes. It that ethical? In today's digital world, yes. I guess that I am just behind the times, because I find this to be rather creepy. When combined with management deleting threads that ask questions about TOS, it seems to me that the character of ST is becoming much more totalitarian... then again, maybe I am just out of touch with what passes for "normal" these days.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Oct 27, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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I just checked with khanom and he swears I am the only person he emailed through the ST system about starting a new thread. He did this because I had also expressed unhappiness with the way that Dr. F.'s thread on science vs religion had been deleted with no warning. A lot of us put a lot of time and effort into that thread and went back to read and look at the many references on it from time to time. After 30 years of working around the U.S. military which practices arbitrary group punishment, I was not happy to see that on a climber's web site.
I expressed to khanom that I was interested in another website where women would feel more welcome and where Sherpas could post as well. Neither of these agendas would compete with ST.
I did NOT rat out khanom to the management. The only complaint I have ever made to them was about holocaust jokes. Even the boob thread which I found distasteful did not elicit a letter from me to the management. Therefore, if I have any reputation for integrity on this thread, trust me, I was not the source of the email contents for the web administrators here.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 27, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
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Thanks for being forthright, RJ - it means a lot to those of us confused by recent events.
Also, thanks to Nutjob for some further clarification.
It is a difficult job you guys do, and I am sure the hits just keep coming 24/7.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 27, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
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Jesus. Who give a f*#k. People, get a life.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 27, 2014 - 04:45pm PT
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rj, thanks for the reply and thanks for the clarification.
That 30k-plus science v religion thread was a jewel even if some disagree. Marking time. Marking participation. Marking sentiments. By internet forum savvy climbers no less. If a way could be found to retrieve it and archive it, that would be nothing short of... awesome. The way back machine works a bit, to a point, but doesn't come close.
Thanks again for the hearing and thanks in advance for whatever you can do.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Oct 27, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
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I too would like to thank RJ for his reply. Communication is always the basis for understanding and a lot of what has happened could have been avoided if the admin had posted even a paragraph after Dr. F's threads were deleted.
Hopefully, when the administration want us to know something in the future, they'll just tell us. Rumor and innuendo is always worse than the truth.If management wants some topics not to be discussed, that is of course their right, but please give us some guidance or at least warning about that.
And yes, if possible, please bring back the religion vs science thread. Week after week for the past several months, the New York Times was running a similar series, echoing what we had discussed on that thread in previous weeks, so it was state of the art so to speak and definitely produced lots of hits for the advertising count.
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Michelle
Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
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Oct 27, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
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There is no Constitutional Amendment that covers Privacy fyi, but having said that..
The at will user deletion policy blows. Y'all allow blatant threats and disrespect to continue yet when some little bitch with terminal butt hurt contacts you about their bruised ego (NOT ksolem), out comes the ban hammer. It's arbitrary and bullsh.it. Time after time after time I see the blatant misogyny ignored, the bullying allowed, if not encouraged. But hey, it is your website. You're entitled to your inconsistencies. I'll probably be deleted for criticizing the management.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 27, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
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Jesus. Who give a f*#k. People, get a life.
My thoughts exactly....
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Michelle
Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
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Oct 27, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
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^^^haaahahaaaa
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 27, 2014 - 05:28pm PT
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Not that my help would actually result in anything of value getting done...
Unfortunately, that deletion mechanism is permanent, and so there is no easy way to restore the thread. But, it still might be possible with a bit of work.
 So, what can I do to get back some of my writings?
People have to know my position and why...
I fully understand that I will not be able to assist in this matter, not just because of lack of access and contacts, but even if I did have these things, I'm not exactly equipped with actually producing results...
and that's all that has ever really mattered.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 27, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
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Thanks RJ for responding.
As far restoring the large nuked thread, I'd suspect what is in his list to consider is a restoration from a backup. Which is certainly doable, but restoring just a single piece of a backup is a lot of work, so I'd imagine it is not something he can turn around quickly.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 27, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
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The deletion of the science v. religion thread was accidental collateral damage.
bwahhhhhaha, friendly fire!
I love the smell of thread deletion in the morning.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
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Rule number one and the only real rule here.
Never piss off the site owners, ever !!!
This is their lively hood.
They will protect that at all costs and YOU will lose .....
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