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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:32am PT
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Steve,
You actually had an interesting point - that Ammon missed a blind #3 RP placement that was critical to climbing the route clean. If your concern is further damage to the route, it would have been best to stop there and just provide the beta on how to do that move. Maybe a topo and photo of the move?
All the ensuing personal attacks on Ammon, guesses about his ego/motives, etc., are pretty much absurd. And they really divert attention from the real point you had. We are human and we make mistakes sometimes, fail to see the tricky way to do it clean, or fail to free the pitch, etc. Sorry, but it just doesn't mean as much as you claim it does.
Your critique of speed climbing, that it needs to be done in the best possible style, is possibly interesting, but probably too limiting. If we extend your theory to its logical end, then only "onsight free solo" speed records should count. In reality, the speed climber can choose their own style category, just as any climber does (except where climbing is explicitly regulated like hammerless aid in Canyonlands and Arches). The irony of the present example is that Ammon does care about climbing clean and preserving the rock, while you (and [edit:] Mimi) are overplaying your criticism of his one pin move.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:51am PT
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"To put the whole thing in perspective: In the grand scheme of things these are really petty squabbles. There are more important spiritual matters in life."
Excuse me, but I really get sick of hearing this one...
Yes, there is genocide in the Sudan, infants dying of AIDS, species going extinct, and oceans rising - but that doesn't have sh#t to do with climbing ethics and I personally find it lame beyond words every time I hear someone attempt to trivialize climbing ethics in this manner. It is usually bandied about in bolt-related discussions right along side of "just don't clip them" and other equally inane sililoquies.
Now I don't have the wall experience or history to wade into this conversation on the merits of Steve's post or comments about Ammon, both of whom I respect, but the subject does matter. It is front and center in any discussion about protecting rock and routes, and here is an great opportunity for a cross-generational perspective on the topic by two people that do have clue. I for one would appreciate anything either of these gentlemen have to say regardless of what I personally think of the "tone" of the converstaion...
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Sep 12, 2006 - 05:35am PT
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Thanks to those who know me, for sticking up for me. They know I'm not out there bashing the hell out of rock for the sake of speed.
Steve, most people that I've talked to, that actually know you, say: "He's just an old cantankerous and opinionated “has-been” feeling unappreciated”.
Well, I don’t know if that’s true because I’ve never met you. I did think of you a lot while on Jolly Roger and thought I’d like to meet you someday. I don’t know…. that first post is a LOT different than your follow-ups. It came off as VERY mean spirited.
I also learned that you hate speed climbers. Why is that, Steve? You should really explore that answer. It might surprise you if you really get to the bottom of that hate. Do you feel inadequate because you can not keep up?
I don’t speed climb for egotistical reasons. I go in a push because sleeping on the cliff has lost a lot of its challenge for me. Hey, I’m just a regular guy who has devoted a LOT of time getting good at wall climbing. BUT, hey….. it’s ONLY climbing. Don’t take it … and yourself, for that matter, so seriously. You come off like your ethics are far above everyone else’s, very elitist and egotistical sounding.
And yes Hardman, I did call Ricardo out. He is a friend of mine and I was doing it in a “give your friend a little shit” way... and find out some info. There is a big difference in the tone of my post to Ricardo, and this one.
Cheers guys!!
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Sep 12, 2006 - 06:50am PT
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Haa haa haa!!!
Timmy needs to do a spoof on you, Steve. Too funny!!
[edit] Yep, just got off at 1:00am, night rigging is fun, Knott! haa haa!
[Another edit]: Loom, we need to get an El Cap route in, together. OOOOOOooooaaaaahhhhh!!!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:53am PT
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Jaysus, I probably shouldn’t be throwing my two cents worth in since I haven’t climbed aid since the early 1980s and have yet to finish a route on Cap (one attempt on Salathe), and have only done the West Face of Leaning Tower and South Face of Column back in the mid-1970s...
…but I think Mungeclimber’s comments are how I feel about Steve’s post. And the Nurenberg reference I read as only a quip, so the Godwin Law didn't kick in for me. And while I don't know most of you people, from being on SuperTaco well over a year now, many of you seem like very decent people and darn good climbers, either aid, free or both, so my two cents is not directed at Ammon.
And yes I will finish at least one route on Cap (The Nose or Salathe, hopefully both and more) one day, and I’d hope to do any route clean if possible. That said, if the aid is really hard, I’d probably opt for a couple of pins as backup measures if need be.
But this is coming from a big wall neophyte.
Style is one thing, falling is another… and death or serious injury a whole different matter.
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Leroy
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:58am PT
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Good one Steve.Glad to see someone calling guys out.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:38am PT
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steve i like your style clean. takes a lot more dedication than pounding pins and drilling bolts.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:43am PT
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clint, i think you meant MIMI, not JENNY.
2 different eeee's there.
clint, something else. detailed beta may help others do it hammerless, but at what price? not making a jusgement here, but when topo's state what pro one needs and where then i think something else is lost as well.
patrick take it from a punter. pins are not required on the nose or salathe.
i was against mimi bringing this out earlier. i too believe that what mungeclimber said is spot on. i spose this makes us less ethically pure than others. however, i did retreat off a wall once cuz i was cryin for the hammer and chose not to.
BTW, steve G, is your book the one where Steve Schnieder wrote the chapter on climbing walls fast? sorry i dont have your book but that chapter is awesome.
i was curious about something else steve. what info did you have concerning WoS for your book? why bash those guys so hard?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:55am PT
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Hawkeye, yeah I know that The Nose and Salathe are clean routes, but I meant if I ever get on anything much harder (aid wise) on the Cap. But to be honest, aid climbing never did do much for me. To each their own.
(I wish I was good enough to climb Nose & Salathe free, as I find aid climbing kind of... 'boring' and tedious.)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:04am PT
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I did NOT start this.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:08am PT
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Ammon is a friend, so there is a natural tendancy to take his side. The personal (ego) comments are largely unfounded, but I agree with the core message of the OP to the community in general.
Maybe it is just me, but I see a difference in the medium, sandstone vs. granite. Where sandstone is so much more fragile, it is the domain of a more artistic touch, and a worse place to handplace pins. I've seen a bunch of solid handplacements in granite, and can't remember one in sandstone.
After taking out all the specifics of who and where, we are left with speed vs. impact. What should be the top priority in ones mind when climbing. On the ground talk gets loud about style/ethics/effiecency/time records, but let's be honest and say that safety drowns out all that other stuff when it's your ass dangling from a thread. Courage isn't a lack of fear, it is the action in the face of it.
Others with more experience on the keyboard than the rock are quick to throw their two cents in, well guess what, those are Canadian pennies and aren't worth squat here.
Who brings pins on the nose now? NOBODY.
Why? Because a major effort has been made to pave that route like a sidewalk. You can rap from bolts pretty much anywhere on it, so the commitment factor is a joke. That is not the case anywhere else, so when you don't bring historically necessary gear into that environment, you are putting more than your own ass on the line. Rescuers have been killed trying to save people many times.
Bailing from the shield headwall is probably harder than continuing up. So not bringing a hammer because Charlie did it with out one, is negligent and puts others at potential risk.
As for the comment that most climbers don't even own a piton, I just have to shake my head in disgust and wonder why you even think you know what we are talking about. And I picture matching gold lamee slippers and chalk bag hanging proudly on a hook in someones living room.
But I think what is really eating Grossman, who I am generally in awe of, is how much attention speedclimbing is getting, and how little focus there is on the clean ethic. Yes I call it an ethic, not a style, because that's where it comes from.
So for me, I have to say doing Mescalito in 3 days was cool, but the highlight of my El Cap career was cleanclimbing the money pitch on Sunkist. Wiggling ratty trinkets in where Takeda nailed arrows on the cover of the guidebook, made me feel I had acomplished something. I wasn't timing it, but I am sure it was like a 5-6 hour lead. Then Rolo does the whole route in 18 hours. Is one ascent "better" than the other? If you have an answer to that and haven't done the route, your bias is showing.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:24am PT
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So what has more impact, 6 days of piss stains on a wall or 1 pin placement? If you are really serious about clean climbing then you should leave NO trace and carry your piss with you. Otherwise your "Clean" ethic is just the sound of your jaw flapping in the wind.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:32am PT
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I have done a bunch of caving, and always carried a piss bottle. But walls are outside, and it rains quite frequently. You should check it out, outside that is.
It's where the Dominoe's guy brings your pizza from...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:45am PT
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Gotta go with elcapfool on this.
Well said.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:57am PT
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I think what's eating Mr. Grossman (who I'm also in awe of) is a realization of how little influence he has on our actions once we leave the ground. If Mr. Grossman can't trust Ammon not to pound (and Ammon is ten ways of bad-ass) what can he possibly expect from the rest of us chickenshits?
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j_ung
Social climber
Charlotte, NC
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Sep 12, 2006 - 10:20am PT
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Steve Grossman: "The logic of Nuremberg (Hey! Everybody’s doing it, right?) really doesn’t get you anywhere meaningful."
Steve Grossman: "While you seem to be a capable and accomplished climber, your ego is obviously twisting your common sense."
Steve Grossman: "Ammon, don't feel that because I'm criticizing your actions that I seek to judge you."
Steve, I don't know either of you, nor do I know the route, but I know a judgment when I see it. And that, my friend, was it.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Sep 12, 2006 - 10:59am PT
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j_ung = gym climber. go back to rc.com
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j_ung
Social climber
Charlotte, NC
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:19am PT
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"j_ung = gym climber. go back to rc.com"
Oh, sorry. What with all the back biting, flame wars, tired rehashed topics, holier-than-thou attitudes, opinionated bitches and ten-foot poles up asses... I thought that's where I was.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:21am PT
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Ahh, the internet. Repository of all human knowledge and domain of all those without any.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:43am PT
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For the general punters in the crowd, one has to know Steve a little before jumping to judgements.
Steve's a taciturn gentleman who chooses his words carefully, and then speaks them with a calm, quiet voice. Always upfront, he'll sometimes hit a nervecenter with such calm, and with such a sly smile, that one's intital gut response (to what would otherwise be considered "them fightin' words") is completely muted without much choice in the matter. The profundity of the encounter sinks in only much later.
Never happened to me, but I saw him do it with other mutual friends, much to their sudden surprise. One thing that is for sure with Mr. Grossman, though, is that he walks the talk.
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