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BPorter
Big Wall climber
Quartz Hill, Ca
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Sep 10, 2006 - 03:44pm PT
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Don't know about the dots in the Gunsight, but this is normal practice in the European Alps. Spent some time in both the Bavarian Alps and the mountains outside of Innsbruck. All trails had either fully painted small rocks or painted dots on larger rocks along trails. Sooooo, the Euros did it!!!
Cracko
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Michael Golden
climber
Mountain View, CA
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Sep 10, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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>But just for a little tidbit from the past, the ledge trail used to be marked with paint.
The ledge trail still is marked with paint, isn't it? It was a few years ago. Maybe you meant "back in the day, somebody marked the ledge trail with paint." I don't recall requiring the paint on the ledge trail in order to find the proper route.
It (the ledge trail, not the paint) is good fun once you get past the loose and fresh glacier point rockfall debris, which is both tedious and disconcerting.
-Michael
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 05:51pm PT
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To the DayGlo Alpine Tag Artist:
In the near absence of any scathing open criticism, whoever you are and for whatever reason you or your party deem this kind of flagrant and illegal degradation of the environment necessary to meet the needs, real or imagined, of your party, to travel safely in a National Park (much of which is wilderness), let me be absolutely clear. You belong in jail and should immediately and inequivocably cease to spray paint anything than your face. Cairns are one thing, other trail markers another. Permanent orange spray paint is right out.
Anybody involved in establishing this blight needs to come forward if they don't understand the impact. If you think you are justified, think again. Nobody's needs are served here other than some overzealous need to protect people from themselves. While this is common abroad, and has some local historical precedent, it is complete and utter bullsh#t. Surely it would be better for you, or whomever you're seeking to assist, that you learn the navigation skills necessary to move through this terrain, as so many others before you, and leave no trace. Whoever you are, knock it off.
Disrectfully yours,
Mimi deGravelle
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Sep 10, 2006 - 06:12pm PT
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Ms deGravelle is right.
The Painters didn't need paint to find their way, but they think the rest of us are too stupid to find our own way. A condenscending attitude permanently immortalized on stone. An insult to my intelligence and route-finding abilities, and outright theft of my accomplishment of finding my own way.
Thieves, Vandals, and Know-It-All Jackasses who we would all be better off without.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 10, 2006 - 10:55pm PT
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Here's what you do:
Backpack sprayer full of water, and spray cans of removal 330 or 320 or 310, whichever is the spray can.
Removal is environlmentally safe, and it works great.
YOu can find it on the internet, used to be 8 or so bucks a can.
I have used this stuff before, you have to stay with it and keep it damp with freahs spraying for severl hours and then rinse off the bubbled up paint with water.
I'll talk details with you if you like, email me, or ask here.
I have pics of test patches done on old graffiti on sandstone with removall if yo uwant to see em.
Whenever we can get good enforcement, we (THe City forester n me, plus helpers) are going to removal all the graffiti from the city park that has our best boulderfield around Bham Alabama, moss Rock Preserve, in The city of Hoover, which had the good fortune to gain a gift of the boulders and the wisdom ro take care of them, unlike Atlanta, where the Southeastern Climbers Coalition had to BUY as much of Boat Rock as we could afford, to save it from developers, who blew up many nice granite boulders.
And to whoever did the spray painting, unless it was for rescue, You truly suck. Screw Europe and what's common there. Spray painting rock is viewed as disgusting here I hope you get your ass beat, which is what vandals deserve at the very least.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 11, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
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Dingus,
IF anone wants the crap off there, I'm telling how to do it, in the best way possible. There is no easy way. If it is not removed, that stupid paint will be there for years.
ONe more thing, when you wash off the residue, its probably a good idea to have something like paper towels to catch the crud with the pigment and binder in it.
YOu know, I've been experimenting with Graffiti removal for years, there are a lot of things people try that actually make the problem harder to fix, or damage the rock.
THe procedure I outlined has been tested, it works quite well, and you ought to have a little respect.
What do you have against coming up with something helpful?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Sep 11, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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I for one fully support the color marking of all approaches and descents in The Yosemite Valley.
Juan
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 11, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
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'THe procedure I outlined has been tested, it works quite well, and you ought to have a little respect.
What do you have against coming up with something helpful?'
The gunsight isn't some 40' chosspile you can just stroll up to with a pack sprayer full of water.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Sep 11, 2006 - 03:01pm PT
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weak
how old was the stuff? could have been there quite a while as there aren't too many crews going down the gunsight anyway. (lower is closed half the year for perigrines).
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 11, 2006 - 03:32pm PT
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I... confess... I did it.
I also chopped down the cherry tree.
Personally I think that it was a Bush/Clinton job.
Anyway, it sounds lame.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Sep 11, 2006 - 03:33pm PT
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Spent some time in the Bavarian Alps and the mountains outside of Innsbruck. Trails were marked with painted rocks or dots painted on bigger rocks. Don't know how you could get lost as you could always see the next mountain hut!! Soooo, as for Gunsight, it had to be Euros !!!
Cracko
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 11, 2006 - 04:55pm PT
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Is it even possible to get lost once you're in the Gunsight? Perhaps it's the handywork of nonclimbers who are going up it to fish in Bridalveil Creek or hike around?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 11, 2006 - 05:26pm PT
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Is it wrong to assume that this has "Euro" written all over it?
Last time I saw orange dots was going up to the Torres del Paine lookout in Patagonia. There was one about every 30ft, it was rediculous and ugly...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 11, 2006 - 07:20pm PT
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HEy caughtinzipper, shut your pie hole, moron.
You are totally clueless as usual.
If you had any decency about you, you'd be trying to help fx the problem, not carping at me, you little SH!T.
I don't give a fvck how big it is, it can be cleaned up.
But not by pissants like you, who only bitch.
It will take a lot of work by people who care about such things, and they won't be bitchy little internet sport climbers.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2006 - 07:26pm PT
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Dirtineye
Can you link me a website here for the 330 or whatever it's called removal product.
Thanks in advance, WB
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 11, 2006 - 07:27pm PT
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Ok loser. Keep posting your great 'advice' about things and places you don't understand and have never been to.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Sep 11, 2006 - 07:54pm PT
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"Can you link me a website here for the 330 or whatever it's called removal product."
I think he was talking about products on this page:
http://www.biowash.com/products/
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2006 - 08:10pm PT
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Davidji
Ok, thanks, got it.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 11, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
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Werner, sure.
BTW, I foudn this:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado__rocky_mountain_region/happy_hour_peace_signs/105828802__1
These people did NOT take my advice, and they screwed up,as I warned in my posts about graffiti removal. YO ucan see what happened in their pics.
Now they have created a really tough problem.
here is the original post I made about removall:
The products are Removall 330 and its cousin 320, if I remember correctly.
They are environmentally safe.
One is spray on, the other is paint on. I have used both. Both work, both are tedious, both are expensive. The process takes time, but works very well.
What you do:
Low-powered water spray. A LOW-powered pressure washer if the rock is hard enough, backpack sprayer if unable to get access for the P-washer, any sort of hand sprayer will work, but it takes a while. (the back pack sprayers used in lawn care are one example).
You can buy Removall in spray cans, (expensive but good for places with small graffiti or difficult access) or in 5 gallon tubs and use a paint sprayer.
The point is, whether you paint it on or spray it on, it must remain gooey-- it must not dry out.
This means repeated coats for several hours in very bad cases.
After the product has worked, (more on how in a second) you Gently spray it off with very light water pressure, from an angle, not directly or perpendicular to the rock. (why in a bit)
This takes all day. If done correctly, you will be amazed. I have thought of starting a business to do this, but as I am a bit under the weather now, it ain't going to happen. And besides, nobody really takes the issue seriously enough in my opinion, but maybe they will some day.
OK, the theory (well not just a theory, it's been shown to be true):
This product works by lifting the PIGMENT AND binder. It does not dissolve the binder like strippers, it gets under the binder and pigment, and bubbles it off mechanically. This takes a long time.
Graffiti with more binder is easier to get off that than that with less.
Old is harder to get off than new, because the binder fades but the pigment remains, in the pores of the rock.
Flat paint is harder than gloss paint, because gloss has more binder, and the glossy crap too, and sits on top better, while flat has a different binder that soaks in more. UGH! Still the treatment works, it just may take more applications.
YOU NEED A LOT OF PATIENCE AND DETERMINATION TO GET THIS RIGHT.
IF the graffiti had been blasted with a high-powered pressure washer, pigment may have been driven deep into the rock, and these shadows may never come out. SO, NO HIGH POWERED P-WASHERS, got it? Good!
Also, HPPwashers will fvck up the rock badly, chipping it and etching it. You can dig holes in concrete with a HPPwasher, don't use one to remove graffiti from rock NO MATTER WHO tells you it is OK, OK???
I can post pics of test patches on old and new Graffiti, removed with the spray-can version of Removall, on hard sandstone. Did this with the city forester of Hoover, AL, in MRP.
One day when we have good enforcement and houses nearby with neighbors to report a$$holes spraying, we will remove all the graffiti with these methods that we have tested.
BTW, it had been several years now, the product is truly safe, the rock has not suffered at all, and I am sold on it.
We also used the brush-on stuff at sandrock with some success, but the fvcking redneck 'artists' saw a new canvas and re-painted the place within 6 months.
They should all be in prison, strung up by their thumbs in my opinion.
I think that's about it, if you have questions or I left something out, let me know.
I think I will post this to its own thread, and maybe others would like to know about this but they might not see it here.
Curt Johnson
IT is hard to find 330 now apparently! All my old links are dead, LOL. I have the address of the company that makes it somewhere, I'll try to dig that up.
Here is a place to buy 320, the 5 gallong brushable cousin of 330, the spray can, and 310, the 5 gallon can that you need a power paint sprayer for.
http://www.dtep.com/removall.htm
Here is a place that apparently has a pump sprayer of removal, as well as the others:
http://www.biowash.com/products/RemovALL.php
THis place does not have a good website, DOH, I guess you would haveto call em to make sure you get the right thing.
Really, I have used the 320 too, as the old post says, we used that at sand rock, and it works pretty well. And it is much cheaper than buying spray cans, although it is less convenient.
there is also something new, called elephant snot.
http://www.graffitisolutions.tv/graffiti_removal/products/default.htm
I have not used elephant snot, I don;t knwo a thing about it. It might the the cat's meow though, and their shadow max product is waht those guys who screwd up with wire brushes need.
This shadowing is a big problem. it is caused by pressure washing and forcing pgiment deep into the pores of the stone. Rubbing with rages nad scrubbong with wire brtushes can also do some of this.
Once you remove the binder and you have left pigment behind, as in a bad job of cleaning, it is much harder to get the stain off.
Here are some test patches of removal 330 at work. these pics are 4 or 5 years old. I visit this pallace regularly, and the rock is in great shape-- removal does no harm to the stone.
BY the way, some people seem to feel that this removal thing will not work, or that a back pack sprayer can't be dragged up somethiing that people 3rd and 4th class.
Well they are just wrong. Anybody fit can carry 30 or 40 pounds up 5.4 for god's sake. YO ucna take towels to cathc the runoff, which woudl be a good idea.
Sure it's not terribly easy, but I have spent a long time learningthe stuff I wrote, much of it came from experts in graffiti removal, the rest came from actual testing, and I know it works.
Send me a ticket and plan a time when I am not fvcked by the chemo and I'll come help you do it myself.
I fvcking HATE graffiti, and paint vandalizm on rock, I put a lot of effort into fixing it, I've used these products with good success, and damnitall, there just should not be paint on our climbing areas.
Be warned once again that while the removal process is tedious, it is really simple if you follow my instructions.
The things I warned against will screw up your rock if you do them-- again, see proof of that in in the mountain project link.
DO it wrong and you have a long term eyesore.
Leave the vandalism there and others will repeat the act. Monkey see monkey do is one of the guiding principles of graffiti and vandalism in general.
Whoever did the painting needs to be put in jail, and or fined, and that fact needs to be widely publicised.
I suggest that you guys in Yosemite put up signs that say painting the rock is illegal, and painters will be prosecuted.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2006 - 08:28pm PT
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Dirtineye, I've had to deal with graffiti on rocks before and we didn't know what works back then.
This is great information, thanks again .....
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