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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Interesting how they all go *crickets* every time there's another unbelievably tragic gun disaster that might well have been averted with some simple, reasonable gun restrictions (i.e. age requirements for using Uzis)
Seriously? Would you blame the knife for the cowardly deeds of ISIS on their prisoners?
My 9 yr old shoots.
However, I would not allow him to use an automatic weapon due to the unpredictability of such a weapon.
The range master in this case lacked common sense. He made a tragic mistake that will haunt this child her entire life or until she realizes it was not her fault.
Blaming the weapon is simplistic and an easy out, instead of laying the blame where it rightfully belongs.
It is also a cowardly way of politicizing this tragic event to further one's personal agenda.
The range master paid the ultimate price for his bad judgement. I hope the girl has a healthy support system in her family and she learns to understand she was not to blame.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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I do have young memories about being about 4-5 years old, & sitting on my mom's lap in the pickup, and shooting ground-squirrels outside the window with a semi-auto 22.
Of course, that is now illegal in Idaho & hopefully everywhere else.
That situation was far more under control than the 9 year-old with the UZI at the shooting range.
Of course, the question is?
Why does the UZI incident make you want to defend "guns for everyone?"
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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I'm just counting the days until they lift the restraining order so that I can buy guns. Lots.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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" I would not allow him to use an automatic weapon due to the unpredictability of such a weapon. "
Exactly the point.
Why wouldn't you allow your 9 y/o to use an Uzi? Because any reasonable person recognizes that such tools are inappropriate at such an age.
Those of you who shrug this off...by your logic, any 9 y/o should be allowed to drink, too. And drive a car. Why the hell not? They are Americans, too, dammit!
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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I did not realize that gun ranges provide such an popular tourist outlet for the auto experience. (No new civilian automatics in the US since 1986). Not very useful. Even the army standard M16 is a 3 shot burst.
previous tragedy:
In 2008, an 8-year-old boy died after accidentally shooting himself in the head with an Uzi at a gun expo near Springfield, Mass. Christopher Bizilj was firing at pumpkins when the gun kicked back. A former Massachusetts police chief whose company co-sponsored the gun show was later acquitted of involuntary manslaughter. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/09/02/uzi-girl-gun-tourism-las-vegas/14988003/
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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which victim?
the "trainer" or whatever he called himself?
What lapse of intelligence (or original lack thereof) caused him to let this happen?
He was guilty of gross negligence. He has paid the price.
As were the poor girl's parents. They will pay the price the rest of their lives.
or the child? she's certainly the most tragic victim. What horrors will that innocent child have to live with?
Yes, the trainer. As I said before, pure negligence. Anyone with an IQ over 40 can see letting a 9 year old shoot a fully automatic UZI is a bad idea without "proper" supervision. Which would include holding and securing the firearm at minimum. Does that mean we need more laws to protect stupid people from themselves? No! Stupidity will always find a way. Laws just punish the other 99% of us.
I guess I'm out of line here. Doesn't every 9 year old have a Constitutional right to an Uzi to defend herself?
Don't bother that she won't be licensed to drive for another 7 years at least.
Where was the Good Guy With A Gun? He could have stopped this.............
Your argument is typical baseless banter. You can't legally buy an uzi until you're 21, and you need a special license to get one that is fully automatic. Which is hard to get. So no, a 9 year old doesn't have the right to own a fully automatic UZI. Can a 9 year old be allowed to shoot a fully automatic UZI. Yes, I believe so, with "proper" supervision. Which she did "not" have. Kids shoot firearms like this every day and have for many years. Younger even and still accidents are extremely rare. The difference here is, most kids have parents and/or instructors that have a clue.
This accident was tragically unfortunate. Do we now need to surrender even more of our freedom to choose because of it? I say no...
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"Can a 9 year old be allowed to shoot a fully automatic UZI. Yes, I believe so, with "proper" supervision. Which she did "not" have."
Well, then, what the f*#k. If a 9 y/o should be able to shoot a fully automatic UZI with supervision, then they should be able to drive a car, or drink what they want, or vote...
...with supervision, of course.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Those aren't even remotely the same thing or situations. You can't possibly be so stupid to not see that.
Holding, securing and keeping control of a fully automatic weapon while a 9yo fires it at a range would be more like letting a 9yo sit on your lap and steer a car in an empty parking lot or field. Now what kid hasn't done that?
Your argument is both moot and pointless. But there's no point in arguing with you over it. Your judgments are cast in stone. Stepping outside your box and critically thinking is out the window.
I'm just glad most Americans see these kinds of things for what they are and not jump to their own fabricated conclusions about everything.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Just curious.
Why would a person want a 9 yo to fire a Uzi anyway...?
I expect something like, "for fun" as an answer.
However I could be wrong so I'm asking.
As far as child soldiers...using that as any kind of justification or argument for kids to have, be able to have, shoot, or be able to shoot Uzis is FU.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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It's definitely fun if you can afford the ammunition..... But obviously only for those able to handle such a device. While seated from the bench, a longer/heavier rifle with a bipod and stablized with sandbags would have likely been fine. Something on a tripod when the instructor is actually stablizing it himself with his own hand.
But instead he handed a chainsaw to a 9 year old and unfortunately paid the price for stupidity. Happens everyday in a thousand different situations.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Those aren't even remotely the same thing or situations. You can't possibly be so stupid to not see that.
Holding, securing and keeping control of a fully automatic weapon while a 9yo fires it at a range would be more like letting a 9yo sit on your lap and steer a car in an empty parking lot or field. Now what kid hasn't done that?
Allowing a kid to "drive" a car in a public place is illegal. Allowing a kid to drink alcohol anywhere is illegal in most states. Even if you allowed a kid to drive your car on private property and someone else got hurt you could be sued, yet allowing a kid to use a device whose absolute only designed purpose is to kill people, why would that be illegal?
The only political point that needs to be made about this is that what everyone agrees is "common sense" isn't nearly as common as we'd hope. This isn't a case for more laws, but it does highlight the irrational thinking of many in the pro-gun camp.
The comparison with child soldiers is also absolute rubbish. Those children are cannon fodder, their "officers" don't care whether they get injured, traumatized or accidentally shoot one another. I once saw a trained adult soldier shooting an FN-FAL in single shot mode when something broke and it unexpectedly went full auto, that rifle lifted clean out of his hands, luckily there were only a few rounds in the magazine. When my 140lbs shot it full-auto, it took all of my strength to keep that muzzle anywhere near the target, and all of my concentration to remember to release that trigger.
IMHO, the parents of that kid should be able to sue the range for emotional distress, especially after the range says their waiver "blew away in the wind".
TE
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"Those aren't even remotely the same thing or situations."
So where do you draw the line between appropriate activities for an adult vs. a 9 y/o? Sounds like that's pretty much what this comes down to...differing definitions of 'appropriate'.
From alcohol to driving to Uzis to chainsaws, everybody has differing views of whether this is 'appropriate' for a certain age, and in some cases, society & law has created clear structure around them.
Law or not, everyone has their opinion. It blows me away what some people find as 'appropriate', though.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Chief, go back to your other GunNutz® thread.
BTW:
'They're'
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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It was stupidity that killed that guy; The little girl said the gun was too much for her to handle, but that did'nt seem to occur to either the parents or the instructor until it was too late.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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9yr old has no buisness shooting anything other than a .22. preferable a single shot or a bolt action. teaches them to be accurate and make their shots count. semi auto promotes spray and pray. the thing that makes this accident so inexcuseable is that it has happened bfore. Westfield MA the cheif of police was running a machinegun shoot and let a simeler age kid shoot an UZI. it got away from the kid and the kid was killed. Any serious fire arms instructor should know of that incident.
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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anyone care to speak to the psychology of the girl's parents who had no problem bring her to a gun range and making arrangement to have her instructed on how to properly handle an Uzi?
create a psychological profile, a matrix of perhaps personality traits, for the parents
I have some ideas but I am always more interesting in reading what other people think, as I already know what i think
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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No clue? I grew up on a farm so it was simply what you did. Start out with sling shots then graduate to bb gun. started shooting the single shot .22 at 7ys old and put on pest control not too long after that. hunting, fishing and killing anything that messed with the crops or livestock is what you did. did not know any different. I can gaurentee though that my dad would not in any way shape or form allow me to shoot an UZI at 9ys old. probobly arround 11ish? I started shooting a single shot 20ga shotgun. probobly shot the .303 british (bolt action) at 12 and was given that rifle at 14.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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You can tell it's true fetishism when people can't even concede that someone might be too young to fire an automatic weapon and instead blame the "supervision."
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The supervision was obviously dumber than a brick to even contemplate allowing a kid that young to shoot a submachinegun.
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