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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 16, 2014 - 07:34am PT
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Here is my objection:
One of the absolute hallmarks of modern American Christianity is Evangelism, of which one of the primary objectives and purposes is the conversion of non-adherents.
There is a considerable amount of time and effort given to education of the Evangelist as to HOW to convert. There is specific thinking as to who is the most open to this message, and it turns out to be people in crisis, who are abusers out of control, the depressed--as examples.
To a certain degree, it takes on the feel of "coup counting" or how many scalps one accumulates on one's belt.
The extreme of this are cults. And what do they do? They try to cut people they see as weak out of the herd, and isolate them where others cannot see what is being done.
Or in other words, "PM me."
The title of evangelist is often associated with those who lead large meetings like those of Billy Graham, possibly in tents or existing church buildings, or those who address the public in street corner preaching, which targets listeners who happen to pass nearby. It can also be done in small groups or even on a one-to-one basis, but actually it is simply one who spreads the gospel. Increasingly, the internet enables anyone to become an Internet evangelist.
So, it appears that the purpose is not explanation, as stated, but rather to create the opportunity to encircle, and convert.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 18, 2014 - 08:21am PT
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QT What's the problem here?
"The problem I have with religion - at every point on the spectrum from moderate to extreme - is that it stands as a permanent denial of the possibility of developing a truly rational, modern, open-ended discussion about the nature of our subjectivity, about the possibility of ethics and spirituality truly in conformity with our rationality as it exists now. Every religious person, every person who is committed to still being a Christian or Jew or Muslim or Buddhist is essentially giving tacit endorsement to the religious divisions in our world and essentially saying we need some measure of mythology, we need some measure of fairytale, we need to pretend on some occasions that we know things that we do not know. And it's simply untrue."
Sam Harris
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NO Muslim rejects Christ...
A half-truth if ever there was one. Stick to medicine, doc. Comparative religious studies or analysis is not your wheelhouse.
I remember what a thoughtful piece you wrote concerning end-of-life issues a couple years ago. What's happened since? Maybe too much forum posting and collateral damage?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 18, 2014 - 08:43am PT
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Jawon, I haven't clicked on this because the title lead me to expect another atheist spewfest.
You've written thoughtfully and well, for a data cruncher! :-)
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 18, 2014 - 08:57am PT
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Knowitall prize goes to Werner. I'm trying to picture the circumstances that caused such a whacky and lonely spiritualist view. Werner, you are a Nutjob.
Werner, you spew anger and judgement. Sounds like religion. I doubt that your mind is open at all.
Humor me. According to Werner's 'logic' all atrocities are by the hand of god, all the ideas of atheists are also caused by god. There is no foundation to that kind of quackery.
Actually, atheists cure disease,heal the sick and create rational social policy, and make the world a reasonable place despite the death-cults effort to end reason. Duh!
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:08am PT
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How many severed heads can a jihadi carry as opposed to a Holy Roman crusader?
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:26am PT
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Scrubbles,
The H bombs were an answer to the religious Nazis, the Religious Japanese and the ongoing religious wars in Europe and the Middle East.
God makes war. Science and reason end wars.
God makes plagues. Science and reason end plagues.
God makes sickness. Science and reason cures sickness.
We had the Dark Ages to see what god's world looks like. No thanks.
There is no god. Fancy creation mythologies are for the weak minded followers. Religion offers nothing but delusion. God is a lie.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:32am PT
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Franklin Roosevelt ordered the bombs to be built, he was a christian.
And yes, science is wonderful. You couldn't make your silly comment here
without science.
Sandstone- I suppose that would depend on the size of the heads.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:35am PT
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A half-truth if ever there was one. Stick to medicine, doc. Comparative religious studies or analysis is not your wheelhouse.
Sorry that you think that Muslims don't revere Christ. You must not know any. I do.
If you think they don't, cite something that says that, don't just tell me I'm wrong. You can look at any thousand websites on the subject, and find that Christ is one of the Muslim Prophets, Peace be unto him.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:37am PT
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The atheists keep citing Christian atrocities from long, long ago
Now the Christians hang gay youth from barbed wire, and beat them to death. They are FAR more civilized.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:48am PT
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I'm thinking Toyota pick-up vs. war horse.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:57am PT
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You know, I can almost get the impression you've converted to Islam.
If you're in the know, then you and I both get what I mean by "half-truth." Quit playing games.
If you're a Muslim convert, then you should say so. (Beta: but just don't ever apostasize if you are, not good for your health I hear.)
Earlier you spoke of culture. As Harris says - moderates in Islam give cover to the the fundies and jihadis in Islam. It's too bad modern Arab culture doesn't have much to fall back on minus Islam. It's in a tough spot. The moderates, too, because of it.
I'm thinking you're probably a Karen Armstrong, Chris Hedges or Glenn Greenwald reader.
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Jawon
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2014 - 10:30am PT
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I see that even a thread intended to STOP spewing will be used as an opportunity to spew! On the bright side, I suppose this will just keep the thread alive longer so more people will see my original offer :)
Reilly:
Jawon, I haven't clicked on this because the title lead me to expect another atheist spewfest.
You've written thoughtfully and well, for a data cruncher! :-)
Aw, thanks. I crunch numbers but I enjoy writing as well, which is why I feel I can have a fruitful 1:1 written exchange on topics like this.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 18, 2014 - 10:58am PT
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DO NOT watch this video if you don't have a major sense of humor, or if you have a serious problem with the F word.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 18, 2014 - 11:16am PT
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Once again, an offer of a private conversation for those who want to know about Christianity gets hijacked into a public discussion of "religion," and a demonstration of ignorance of Christian doctrine by those uninterested in knowing it.
Jesus Himself warned that the "religious" would think they were performing a service to God by killing Christians. (See, e.g., John 16:2) Even more bizarre is the contention that "American Christianity" uniquely emphasizes "evangelism," since, in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20), Jesus explicitly instructed his followers to make disciples of all nations.
As for the relative goodness of any group of people, Christian doctrine says that no person is sufficiently good to meet the glory of God, but that every person has infinite worth, because Christ died for all. Christianity is, in fact, one of the foundational sources -- if not the foundational source -- of the concept of the equality and dignity of all humanity.
But enough of doctrine for those who have no interest. If you really care, take up Jawon's or Micronut's offer. If not, leave the thread alone and it will drop off the front page.
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 18, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
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Christianity is, in fact, one of the foundational sources -- if not the foundational source -- of the concept of the equality and dignity of all humanity.
Not in fact, John, in theory.
big, big difference.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Aug 18, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
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Knowitall prize goes to Werner. I'm trying to picture the circumstances that caused such a whacky and lonely spiritualist view. Werner, you are a Nutjob.
emptiness. just a mental speculation. i don't see his view as whacky or lonely. i'd love to follow Werner, but lack the nuts. should find them in myself.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 18, 2014 - 10:40pm PT
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That's just wrong. Why do you want to spout lies to stoke the hate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard#Murder
On the night of October 6, 1998, Shepard met Aaron McKinney (then 22), and Russell Henderson (then 21), at the Fireside Lounge in Laramie, Wyoming.[7][8] It was decided that McKinney and Henderson would give Shepard a ride home.[9] McKinney and Henderson subsequently drove the car to a remote, rural area, and proceeded to rob, pistol-whip, and torture Shepard, tie him to a fence, and leave him to die. According to their court testimony, McKinney and Henderson discovered Shepard's address and intended to steal from his home, as well. Still tied to the fence, Shepard, who was in a coma, was discovered 18 hours later by Aaron Kreifels, a cyclist who initially mistook Shepard for a scarecrow
Oh, and I really enjoyed the nice touch added by the Christian church members who picketed his funeral, and thanked God for his torture and death.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 18, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
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Now the Christians hang gay youth from barbed wire, and beat them to death. They are FAR more civilized.
You make it sound as if all Christians today are out to murdering the young homosexual crowd with a trademark barbed wire noose. you wanna use those young men/boys to represent ALL christians? And that one homosexual young man/boy to represent the gay youth?
sounds like ur trying to start a war, not a debate?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 18, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
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Now the Christians hang gay youth from barbed wire, and beat them to death. They are FAR more civilized.
Yeah, yeah... and all atheists are like Stalin. Or at least most.
Right?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 18, 2014 - 11:19pm PT
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No, I was just giving you nice Christian men the opportunity to repudiate such ugly actions.
You failed.
Now you may think that is unfair. But this was the same tactic used by a number of nice Christian men here, when they decried the lack of Muslim repudiation of the attack on 911, (except that they actually did---but you did not).
thanks for making my case.
No, I don't think that all Christians are ugly bigots. But some are. If you can't keep your own house in order, why would any sane person invite you to tell us how to run ours?
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