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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
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I read that article this morning in the paper too.
I wish that at some point he would have stopped the collecting, especially when asked by the tribe - at least to show some respect for them if not the government. He shows no sensitivity to the people to whom these artifacts actually belong (if they "belong" to anyone).
And what about the "private property" he took items from (he kept mentioning that he "only took things from private property")? If it were my private property I wouldn't be too happy about him trespassing and stealing from me.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
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As heinous as his transgressions are it took 53 federal agents? Really?
That's a lot of donuts.
Let the tribe deal with him in the time honored manner - buried up to his
neck in an ant hill.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
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Federal authorities decline to comment on last month's raid. If the case goes to trial, it will be heard by a Fresno jury far removed from Starks' peers in Lone Pine.
Federal juries in Fresno may be closer to his peers than the author realizes. They tend to be rather conservative, so they respect the FBI, but they also tend to be distrustful of authoritarian people or institutions. If the 53 agents used in the raid gets to the jury, don't be surprised to find at least a hung jury, or even an acquittal.
John
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Jul 24, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
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the guys is coming from an older time...cut him a little slack. He deserves a warning or two before the anthill thing.
He has a point, but in the context of finding those artifacts today it just doesn't hold up. 400 years ago it was trash. Today is treasure. It really is just perspective
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 24, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
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Looters really mess things up for trained archeologists.
Ant hill (and don't forget the honey).
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
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I agree that his attitude towards the artifacts is disrespectful, but 53 government employees? On the tax dole? That is not a good, efficient use of law enforcement resources. How about maybe three people? Or at least no more than five or six?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
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If he had bothered to secure the proper permits, he'd be fine. It takes 53 LEOs to check on permits, because there's reading involved.
He's just another of the great wave of the Undocumented, who are the nearest thing we have to Jesus on Earth, according to Nancy Pelosi.
Mr Milktoast writes:
"That you Chaz?"
Yeah it is! I figured to be on the safe side, I'll just collect the feathers of birds too big to migrate any further than across the street.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:04pm PT
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53 government employees? On the tax dole? That is not a good, efficient use of law enforcement resources
after bundystan? they'd have been irresponsible not to have deployed "overwhelming force," as the recent domestic tactical manuals used to call it.
the guy's own friends, quoted in the article, think he's a nutcase. they said that to out-of-town reporters. what do you think they say to each other? this has dragged on for years--
reasonable expectation is that he's armed, a judicious expectation is that there's a decent chance he might have the place rigged, he's lived there forever and knows his property better than they do, worked for years on the aqueduct, and if he doesn't have a respectable supply of blasting caps and black powder and threaded pipe, then he's doing a really bad job of being a local in ranch country.
anyone blaming the cost of this on the feds is a retard. sorry, but it's true.
let's see you put on the uniform and walk up with a buddy or two to a backcountry place occupied by a sociopathic local whose own friends say he's unstable.
lotta folks on this site climb 5.14 on the internet.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
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For a non-violent property crime, committed by an eighty-year-old?
You send two guys over to knock on his door.
53 armed Federal agents for a permit offense just gives ammunition to the Sovereign Citizen lunatics.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
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For a non-violent property crime, committed by an eighty-year-old?
bundy committed a non-violent property crime.
you fruitloops folks have been going apeshit since that-- i can only imagine what the emails and letters eastside feds and co folks have been getting. i bet death threats is the least of it.
they send two trucks and 4 feds out there and he's got six whackjob buddies with under-used belt-feds and imagine the frickin disaster.
then you'd all be on here crying about how the feds are retards and should've known better.
each one of these is now going to be a massive operation. gonna cost us a fortune. way to go, bro. good job.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
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F*ck the government. I break their laws all the time.
It's not about laws it is about respect.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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Mr Milktoast writes:
"Sure. There are low life scum who shoot hawks to collect their feathers."
Chaz writes:
"You don't have to shoot them. They natuarally shed enough feathers to keep any non-Indian stocked."
The same argument is made about the ivory trade. China and Thailand buy up all tusks being poached in Afica, and then claim it was from Elephants that died of old age. Or elephants that were just molting.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
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Klk writes:
"bundy committed a non-violent property crime."
There's a perfect example.
The Feds could have waited for Bundy to roundup and market his own cattle - which he has to to make any money - and then simply seize the money from his bank accounts. It could have been handled by one guy in one cubicle.
Instead, they accomplished nothing, except for giving ammunition to the Sovereign Citizen lunatics.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
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There's a perfect example.
The Feds could have waited for Bundy to roundup and market his own cattle - which he has to to make any money - and then simply seize the money from his bank accounts. It could have been handled by one guy in one cubicle.
Instead, they accomplished nothing, except for giving ammunition to the Sovereign Citizen lunatics.
um, the thread was about this incident, rather than your horror of the federal govt. set aside bundy for the moment-- given that it happened. and given the current climate and this particular case, i'll repeat what i sad above: the feds would've been irresponsible to head into this without a show of force and some expertise.
i don't know exactly what kind of communication they'd had from the guy, but the things his friends say (and even hint at), gives us a clue.
so far as bundy goes, i haven't been into the archives-- my understanding (based on the media reports) is that went on for years, and the final action was triggered by a court order, rather than on the blm's own schedule. i expect there were years of negotiation with county and state, efforts to pursue other avenues, and it looks like the feds there faced something like a local insurrection-- easy to deal with if you want a bloodbath (cf the debacles at ruby ridge and waco), but tougher if not.
blm, usfs, nps, and atf aren't really military or police institutions, and they don't have great traditions of competence and success in local policing. but we're no longer supposed to do what george washington did-- send the federal army in to crush the rednecks-- so this is what we're stuck with.
democracy is expensive.
delighted to learn yr not one of the militia nuts-- i was worried you were identifying with starks, who seems even less sympathetic a character than bundy.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Jul 24, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
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the guys is coming from an older time...cut him a little slack. He deserves a warning or two before the anthill thing.
The raid marked the third time in a decade that state and federal authorities have tried to end what they allege is his looting of the prehistoric items. The first two attempts failed.
Sounds like he got his warning or two slack. Shall we find the anthill?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jul 24, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
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this has nothing to do with federal protection of the artifacts of the native peoples
just look at the actual history of how the federal government has always treated the native peoples on these lands
this has everything to do with an individual bold enough to deny the authority of the slave masters to control everything and everyone
the self-declared controller gods are psychologically incapable of tolerating any remnants of personal freedoms represented by this old guy
these psychotic controllers must obsessively attack any such examples...this is why climbing will eventually be fully controlled with licensing and regulations
climbing used to be a wilderness sport...however if you need a permit or waiver or license or permission or insurance, then it is not wilderness...
to quote astronaut John Young (two Gemini flights, two Apollo flights to the moon, two Shuttle flights including first to fly the Shuttle, head of the astronaut corp for many years, volunteer for a one way trip to Mars...), "We have to get off this planet, and we have to get off fast!"
so all you super heroes...who is organizing an expedition to climb Olympus Mons???
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 24, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
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Maybe Starks could redeem the stolen bling for cocktails at the Paiute Palace who could then decorate the stuffed Paiute in the glass case with authentic memorabilia...?
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
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You f*#king people can't get over yourselves long enough to see that the f*#king politics don't matter. There are real and priceless pieces of history being plundered. Worst of all, they lose all of their priceless value instantly once moved.
Some federal laws just plain old make sense. Removing the physical evidence of history from public land is reprehensible, especially when the person doing it can't claim ignorance. Why in the f*#k would you not want to preserve tangible, physical evidence of human history for this and future generations. Why is someone destroying that heritage propped up by some of you as some kind of honorable man for standing against a just and worthy law.
Why should the public allow one guy to do this just because it's a fun hobby and he has a rebellious streak?
If y'all are operating under the assumption that historical artifacts are an unlimited resources that can't be quickly exhausted, you're incorrect.
Throw the book at him.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:25pm PT
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OK, he failed to get the proper permits, and he illegally took some stuff home without doing the required paperwork. But 53 armed Federal cops? When one or two would have been enough?
That's what's got people's attention. The heavy-handed response.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
The Peaks
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
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Norman Starks sounds a bit like an climber who can't stop climbing, collecting routes and boulder problems.
I bit like Gregory J. Haverstock, a federal archaeologist and who I used to climb with who is on Norman's case.
Humans eh!
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