Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
SeanH
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
Ron, quit your chest thumping. Homogenization. It's a f*#king hobby. I'm not changing any of your routes, and I do climb clean as possible.
No sh#t, I wasn't around. Nor will the majority of climbers have been around, that's how time works.
Check out how HUGE OUR BALLS WERE. We're SO F*#KING cool. Ridiculous.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Real danger can be had in serious alpinisim...a pursuit not followed by many here.
But Jim, that's objective danger, where even a superb climber can get it just by being unlucky. What about subjective danger, meaning risk that depends on the climber's skill?
I started climbing when the second pitch of Crack of Doom, being unprotected 5.8, probably deterred more climbers than the first pitch of the East Chimney of Rixon's at 5.10a. I'm sure some of that had to do with the relative difficulty of approach, since Elephant Rock before the rockslides had a hideous-appearing approach from below, compared with the benign saunter over to Rixon's. Still, the lack of protection was a major part of the game in chimneys and offwidths.
Similarly, part of the challenge on the Apron was keeping your head on runout slabs. Sure, you'd just slide when (in my case) or if (probably in yours) you fell, but I, for one, found a 40 or 50 foot slide rather daunting. Those climbs would be a whole bunch of nothing if we gave them sport-climbing protection.
John
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
Climbing version would be
1969: You (climber) don't climb hard enough. Work harder.
Today: You (FAist) didn't prepare a route for me that suits my abilities. You're selfish, and you suck.
If an FAist wants to install a lot more protection than they need, it's their prerogative, but I don't see why it needs to be their obligation.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
|
|
To Jim's OP...
the question about how to know what the skill level of the FAist at the time comes to bear. First, how do we know after the fact? Second, is it a fixed standard? Is it 2 letter grades down below your best average FA grade, would then be deemed no longer a 'test piece' for a leader at the grade?
Doesn't the argument from elitism come in to play? Test pieces are only those at the higher end of the scale, and all other low grades should be 'plaisir' climbing since there are no more historical easy summits to obtain, right? (ironically said)
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
It seems the first ascent principle works great in a great majority of cases.
I think that if the FA teams have empathy they understand that they shouldn't put up all moderate climbs in an area as mental test pieces. I think there should be room for both run out test pieces and climbs with enough bolts that people challenged at that grade have appropriate protection. Sometimes lots of moderates were "taken" by advanced climbers putting them all up as sparsely protected climbs which I understand but think was short sighted. But if you don't respect the first ascent principle you open up a can of worms which is tough to close.
For the most part this works itself out on the rock. Climbs can get retrobolted and chopped. Chopping is easier and much less expensive than adding bolts so there is a natural advantage for chopping, which IMO is a good thing because many newer climbers (and some old ones) don't understand why adding bolts is usually bad. The old "if you don't want to use that bolt just skip it argument".
And of course there's more rock around. It just requires a longer approach if you want to put up more climbs in a particular style.
|
|
granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
|
|
I think Donini hits the nail on the head. Forty years ago, back in the 1970's when many of these run-out routes were put up, climbing 5.9 *meant* something. It meant that you were good at the sport, had a steady head, and put a lot of effort into your climbing. If you climbed harder than 5.9, you were maybe even something of a rockclimbing superstar.
Today, with sticky rubber, nylon ropes, lightweight gear, and gym training, almost any schlub can climb 5.9. Those who lead at that grade are not pushing the sport, either in terms of grades or boldness. And that's ok.
John Long made a comment in the other thread that if you need to retrobolt a route, you are not as good as the person who climbed it originally. He is absolutely correct. Those of us who climb the lower grades, we're not as good as the people who put them up, either in terms of headspace or technical virtuosity. Mostly we're people who don't like death falls, or who worry about even more mundane things, like sprained ankles.
Now, there are testpieces, and those are pretty cool. No one thinks the Bachar-Yerian should be retrobolted. But let's be honest- if John Bachar were climbing today, and the B-Y were his Opus Magnum, he would be considered a very good climber, but not cutting edge, which he was.
Times change, climbing skills change, grades stay the same.
|
|
Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
|
|
One thing that gets old is the idea that all sport routes are "homogenized" with closely spaced bolts (every two meters? Is that how they do it in California?). Ever climb in Spain? France? You're always looking substantially longer falls than I ever did free climbing in Yosemite. Obligatory moves wayyy out there. All you brave old-school trads should try one of those routes (yeah Ron, I'm talking to you). And comparing Indian Creek where you can place a piece every inch if you want is ridiculous.
I totally agree with Jim. I've added a lot of bolts to some of my routes when subsequent parties told me they were unsafe. I would welcome the suggestion and accommodate almost any such request. The only reason I ask that I be allowed to add the bolts is that most climbers really suck at placing bolts and I don't want my routes littered with a bunch of spinners.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
+1 ^
John Long made a comment in the other thread that if you need to retrobolt a route, you are not as good as the person who climbed it originally. He is absolutely correct.
There is another situation that occurs once in a while with sport bolting. Sometimes you are better than the FA
Just Morons with power-drills hacking away and doing crappy work. I'll bet we've all seen it. A bolt placed in a stupid position, or poorly installed or other just dumb or lazy efforts. Routes just out of place in a sport crag. Dangerous lures to newbies and even the competent if they don't pay attention for a second.
This is where I have corrected a couple routes back where i was an active local.
The term "rights" is a bit over the top for this.. It's more something like etiquette
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I put up the N ridge of Notch Dome in the '80s. The runout on the 5.6 slabs right off the bolts at the top of the first pitch is so long that there is decking potential even though it is the second pitch!
Clearly I never anticipated doing this route as an old man.
Next time I'm throwing a bolt in to make it sane.
But here is the irony; if somebody else did it I'd be royally pissed!
|
|
SeanH
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
RON - I never said ego had anything to do with how or why routes were put up (though I'm sure in some small percentage, climbs were intentionally bolted sparsely out of ego, but that's besides the point.)
I think people put up routes how they did for a variety of reasons. In many cases, they probably bolted sparsely because putting in a bolt on lead with a hand drill is f*#king hard, so they kept it to a minimum.
I think EGO comes in to play with the notion that things can never change, and that the first to come upon something "owns" it, and has ultimate say.
Chipping the Jardine traverse is murdering the impossible. Adding a bolt to an X or R (legit R, not you'l get some bad scrapes and live to tell about it) route so that more people get to enjoy it, is not. And yes, I said enjoy, and no, I didn't imply that should always happen.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
I need someone to indulge my ignorance a bit. In what climbing areas is retro-bolting a real problem? I'm not aware of a huge outcry about changed routes in the central Sierra, the Meadows, the Valley or in Pinnacles. The routes, and their character, seem to stay about the same, except for increased popularity.
Also, thanks for your post, TV. I confess to having some of the same feelings about my (now trivial seeming) FA's.
John
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
|
|
Safe is cool. Throwing in a bolt or two shouldn't damage a first ascentionist ego too much.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
Pretty much all the trade routes up the big stone.. lol
Hell of a lot of the others on it for that matter.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Thanks, climbski2. I should have clarified my question. "Unapproved" retro-bolts have been around on big walls in the Valley for a very long time. Almost every big climb I did had bolts in addition to those placed on the first ascent. Those "chicken bolts" (placed for aid) didn't seem particularly obnoxious, though, because of the emerging ethic of clean climbing.
I was referring to free climbs, and particularly wondering about routes where retro-bolting has led to major controversy.
Thanks.
John
|
|
G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
|
|
You know, some routes, even though 5.9, are not meant for 5.9 climbers. Although at the time I was a solid 5.12 climber I have just about cried on 5.10 climbs because I wasn't good enough to climb them they way they were established. Some I failed and backed off from and others I found it in me to succeed in spite of my fear. If there were no runout routes like this then I would never know my limits, and would never have exceeded what I thought they were. If this isn't the sort of challenge that you like/need then go climb something else. But if this is exactly what you need in this over-civilized world, then it is nice to have these sorts of routes to challenge yourself with. Don't ever change them!
|
|
G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
|
|
And this whole thread is just because Donini doesn't like face climbs.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
|
Huh G-Gnome? I love face climbing, going tomorrow. I don't seek out slabs but i think steep face is super fun. I like long routes where all kinds of climbing, even a little slab, are involved.
|
|
SeanH
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
Apparently only the extremes in one direction or the other prevail on this forum.
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
|
|
To clip or not to clip? Snapped a pic of this bolt last week at Table Mountain/Mesa in Coors, Colorado. It was about 6 ft off the ground.
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
|
|
lol, I was wondering if anyone would spot the gear placement.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!