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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:34am PT
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Naked free solo, no chalk, without damaging any lichen or plants and all animals left unaware of a human presence.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:43am PT
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Years ago a good friend summed it up as this:
1. Ground up, all clean.
2. Any other way.
Seems a bit much, but also makes some sense.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:43am PT
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I am tired of finding animal feces in the wilderness, while I am trying to leave no trace.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:46am PT
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I am tired of finding animal feces in the wilderness, while I am trying to leave no trace.
Not me. Lets me know that they are around.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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"Complements affirmation with limitations and humility".....,this hasn't always been the case. Routes have been altered when the first ascenionist assumed they couldn't be done without.
It's hard to believe today that in the 70's several Yosemite routes had holds chipped in to make them doable...they now check in at a whopping 5.10.
First ascenionist should never alter rock architecture....once done, it's irreversible.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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What's with this "naked" obsession? The best FA is free solo wearing animal skins killed and tanned on sight.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:08am PT
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The great thing about having a superior style of putting up new routes, is the inner smugness of a pure soul.
Best to be kept private so as not to come across as an a-hole.
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HJ
climber
Bozeman, Montana
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:13am PT
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Seems to be two different discussions going on here. One has to do with what is the best style of a first ascent. Other seems to have to do with what is the best way to put up a routes in a given area, rock type, etc. that will prove to be good quality, fun, well used, etc. routes. In my mind these are different.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:20am PT
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:44am PT
Henry still climbs plenty. He's still solid on 5.10, still uses a one inch swami, just stoppers and hexes.I don't think he needs this one route as a testament to his boldness worldwide. My guess is that like many of us, he just doesn't accept retrobolting.I don't either.
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 15, 2011 - 10:17am PT
Hard to believe that Henry, at this date, would fly to the Black Hills to chop the bolt. Henry has put on weight and has evolved into a recreational climber who does not resemble the Hot Henry of lore. He also has other activities (notably fly fishing) that occupy him.
I will say that if you put him on a necky, technical, not too steep route you can still see a master at work.
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Sep 15, 2011 - 10:18am PT
More likely Jim, he went to visit friends and climb there...just sayin'.
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:06am PT
Yes bolts were added...but who cares?
Clearly someone and there's no short of people who care quite passionately about retrobolting...
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 15, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
First ascents are competitive, you lost. Now you can go back and do it as the FA was done...
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Sep 15, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
Interesting! As for "HOT" Henry, my group all had the nickname of "Henry". His style and boldness commanded such things.
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
If it bothers you so much Dingus, just go replace them. With a 35-year chop cycle you should only have to do it once!
Imo, if you were gonna do that, no thread no publicity, just go do it and never mind about Henry. How's he gonna know unless someone tells him.
Just my two cents - never even been in the state, myself (the Dakotas are the only states I have not set foot in, weird)
DMT
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
I've got money that says Sarge won't drive to SD to chop a bolt.
TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
I got money.
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
Story now has it that he flew out in August and belayed Eric Sutton to do the chopping.
Is the story from a reliable source, i.e. is there a named witness, or has Barber admitted to doing it?
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 15, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
Hhhmmm, he (Henry B) was at Devil's Tower July 30th....
Probably just something he did while he was around rather, than coming out specifically for the 'deed'.
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Sep 15, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Horning ,Lee, Clevleand, Barber. Who did what when?
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 15, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
Many climbers have repeated the route with bolts. Many more climbers are now deprived of one of the Needles most unique summits due to Henry's need too be a legacy building egotist. Nothing good was accomplished by the senseless chopping of these bolts especially after 35 years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a modern view of things. The classical view is that a route was the creation of whoever put it up and everyone after was honest and sporting only if they took the route on its own terms. That didn't include "fixing" the route to fit your fancy. You don't go into the Met and start in on the canvasses with a Sharpie.
Why so?
The notion was that there were plenty of routes to climb and that only a cheat dumbed down an existing route so they could do it. Ragging on someone for running the rope, claiming that they deprived people of "their" experience is to shift ownership of the route from the first ascentionists to whatever poltroon walks up to it now or next year and decides he has the right to climb it however he so chooses and never mind the fist ascent. Die, Henry Barber, and all that jazz. It's all about me and mine.
That's the hardcore line. Both the bold dude who runs the rope and the panty waste who adds bolts to a 35 year old route can be seen as selfish, depending on perspectives. Any way you look at it, adding bolts to old classic routes is a slippery slope.
JL
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
DMT,
ah yes I could go up there and modify, the story is quite amusing, but i say let's permit a placard at the base of this climb commemorating how H Barb got the second ascent of this spire and we'll all forget about Cleveland's much more spectacular unsung first effort (and success).
If every first ascentionist could get one and only one placard at the base of what he thought was his greatest accomplishment and Superpin were in my bag I would not wish the placard placed on it. But WTF I could be bought for $10,000. I suppose I would give my placard to Henry and he could have two as permitted by the donor rules. After all this guy once wrote in a register on the boulder Scab, "All these B1's are bullshit[Gill's]". An anonomous reply followed that read, "Then go try Gill's Thimble route." Can we put Henry's second placard at the base of Scab reading the words that he wrote about the B1's ?? A legend is known by his deeds and words and he will be judged by his words also.
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 15, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
If I had a dollar for every bolt that has been added to a route I put up (and no doubt subsequently credited to "me"), they would make me little richer but far poorer.
As they have,..
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Sep 15, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
a legend is judged by his words??? Really? hmmmmmmmmmm
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Sep 15, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
EDIT: to remove vile slander I have heard ever so many times around campfires, as being un-personally substantiated. Who caree?
Replace the bolt, and shut up about it. HB will be "happy" and all the other climbers who are actually there will be safe and alive at the end of the day.
And you can bet I almost never support bolting a route down to the LCD.
(Doesn't sound like me at all. I wonder who stole my sign on?)
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
Excuse me Ron Anderson,
some of us have the ability to judge by words.......
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Sep 15, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
so then by your words its a good thing to retro bolt any climbs one deems risky or dangerous?
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Sep 15, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
The time for Henry to have taken action was when the bolt was first placed. Now, after 35 years of ascents, 'history', as well as Henry, have a say in the condition of the route.
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Sep 15, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
No, my thoughts are similar to the above.
My solution is to stay off of routes I think are dangerous and leave them alone. Retreat. But unfortunately, ever so many don't seek to take that path. And I hate that.
But in the end, you are not going to be able to enforce that. Climbing is SO NEW! Friggin BRAND NEW! What do you think is going to happen in 200 years to the climbs you "put up"? Is anybody REALLY going to remember your ascent and its "style" when 200 years of tech and feet have completely rewritten what you did? (and 200 years is a BRIEF instant in the history of a rock)
NOBODY is going to be able to really get in tune with what you did, it would be like your doctor admiring the work of a Civil War surgeon as he hacked off legs and arms, or admiring the navigator of a Spanish Bark as it wends its way around marginally charted reefs. Impressive? Maybe. Relevant? No.
A better model than the "climber is an artist, his route is his canvas and he CREATES the route", is "a route is DISCOVERED and you're responsible for giving it it's greatest expression".
If we had the second, more advanced consideration of the routes, a lot of what we argue over as "FA/SA ethics" would disappear, to be replaced by what is best for the route and the community that surrounds it. I think a lot of bolts is seldom what is really best for the route, but occasionally it is.
jstan
climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
The time for Henry to have taken action was when the bolt was first placed. Now, after 35 years of ascents, 'history', as well as Henry, have a say in the condition of the route.
In a perfect world - yes, certainly.
But in that perfect world the bolt might well not have been placed at all.
We also don't know when it was Henry learned of the bolt. We also do not know for a fact Henry was involved. For that matter, is the bolt gone?
More generally, over the last forty years many have maintained that no matter how offensive we think artificial protection may be, it should be left alone. We felt this way because isolated persons carrying on a war, serves only ill.
A lot has changed. When a bolt is chopped we quickly get threads drawing attention to the fact there is a problem. When there is an already existing coordinated effort by climbers to manage an area, events like this may be needed to get some attention.
I don't think I have changed how I feel. Certainly when self-righteousness is on the scene what should be a success - can become a disaster.
Righteousness is our problem. We will have an answer when we get rid of that.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
Ron Anderson,
so then by your words its a good thing to retro bolt any climbs one deems risky or dangerous?
do you have any reading comprehension skills?? Where have I said this?
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
jstan,
we do know precisely when Henry learned of the bolt. After belaying the bolter Mr. Ed Sklar headed to the payphone and made a call to Henry. yes, Ed was laughing all the way to the booth. Oh, how I enjoyed his sarcasm. I am the person who conceived the method and did the rescue of Mike Todd. While Mike was rappelling he ask whether he could borrow my bolt kit. Ed said Mike would have fun putting it in and Henry could have fun chopping it. This was 34 years ago.
jstan
climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
Dingus:
So really. This is not about the bolt at all?
People just wanted to poke at Henry?
They wanted to do that so badly they were willing to retrobolt a Cleveland route?
Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
Sep 15, 2011 - 06:03pm PT
Henry makes himself a big target, as donini alluded. Pretty sure he cares little about the slings and arrows of public opinion. Seems as though the gauntlet was laid down long ago. He just waited awhile before picking it up, perhaps...
FortMental
Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 15, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
Over the years, what I have read about Henry, if all true, pretty much supports the theory that he is a complete dick.
Ouch....
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
jstan,
"this" your words--what are its referents??
The bolt means different things to each of us and so does its chopping. Ed Sklar has just won a bet with Mike Todd that he would have to place a bolt on Superpin.
Pokes at Henry? I would think you know this guy? Some of us have an inside story that reveals character enough so that we can understand their motives.
The Cleveland route has no bolts, had no bolts. there are 2 routes on Superpin.
I do no control what goes on after posting a new thread.
jstan
climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
Dingus:
You seem to be a reasonable fellow. What's happening here?
Pete Cleveland did absolutely incredible stuff and never gave even one thought to taking a bow. I can think of only one or perhaps two other people who have set a equal example for us.
Now we have people who think it a joke to modify publicly owned property, on a Cleveland route to poke at someone they apparently don't like.
Is this really what is happening?
You have been upfront. My props. If it is, just say it.
I need to know.
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Sep 15, 2011 - 07:37pm PT
we'll all forget about Cleveland's much more spectacular unsung first effort (and success).
I don't think anyone is advocating that. Let's not attribute any false motives or desires to what appear to be something of a personal issue.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
jstan,
to my knowledge no one has ever tried to repeat Cleveland's Superpin route and it remains in total respect. The lead is impressive and on par with Gill's Thimble route. Perhaps you reap what you sow. There are no stances for drilling. It looks like climbing vertical 40 grit sandpaper. Barber's route "took over" the time constrained workings of several locals on a line distinct from Cleveland's line.
In dealing with people we can pass good and bad currency. Henry may be a banker but he has little skill in passing "good currency". If Henry had passed only good currency to me I may have argued to not place the bolt on Superpin but as the state of poor currency was with him I did not interfere with any decisions of Mike and Ed. Also I had just rescued? SOME ONE -- that also started working the route sometime before Mr. Barbs put his fangs on that rock. Oh, we have tradition here but some of you do not want to ask for it and pay little respect for a project when told it is in the workings? So to me, MIKE could decide what he wanted to do. Was this his route or the route that Henry stole?
Now, to other people this bolt meant infringement, safety, violation of tradition etc.
Oh, Henry take what of our tradition you like and make your sacred monument. I hear Eric Sutton ask the Black Hills Climbing Coalition to put this on a list of "sacred climbs"
Well jstan who will ask the community for us to preserve our sacred monuments? Please do not waste the time to ask me if I give a damn.
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Sep 15, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
Try this on for good currency, before anyone retrobolts a route, how about YOU lead it first without. That's the way to determine the value of a currency.
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Sep 15, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
so Clevlands route has been left alone as bold testement, but Henrys route gets bolted out of spite for being "stolen".. Ok maybe the stealing wasnt the best course of action but not knowing the conversations i shant guess, but will say that retro bolting Barbers line in spite lowered the bolters below a level from Barber. IF it was just a safety issue wouldnt Clevlands route also have bolts? just curious
chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Sep 15, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
Rokjox - Maybe the stories you heard about Henry are just spew from gossiping old ladies. I made a short trip to the desert with him years ago, he didn't seem like a dick to me.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
Oh Tomcat,
how you live in the land of YOUR rules. This is South Dakota not New Hamshire. We do not want your ways out here. I say if some one steals the route you are working on do it over in your style and let the bully know what he has done.
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
It's not your route until you sack up and do it dood.
labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:28pm PT
I keep checking to see if Henry has chimed in on the latest chop thread. What are the odds?
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:31pm PT
Tomcat,
there is no possession for each climb is not the same route.
But Henry got what he sowed. Problems
And DUDE, Mike Todd got a bolted route to lead when he wanted. He was not the loser.
Oh, you can't aways get what you want, but you just might find you get what you need.
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
All climbs are different,the rules of the game, not so much. You can't lay claim to a route because you nipped around the base of it. People do that every day and never climb sh#t.
The story of the bolt placement is a sad testimony to someone's weakness, sorry.
You are totally blowing bullshit here. two posts up you claimed to own the route by virtue of trying it, now you say there is no possession.
coondogger
Trad climber
NH
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
So... Henry stole somebody's route? Someone's property? It was a piece of f'ing rock on public property. That makes it everyone's property. Which is it?
Many of you are slinging mud and you don't even know the guy. Have never met him. You are not even certain of the basis for your position but you're pretty sure if what you read is close to accurate you don't like him or his actions.
That is crap.
You guys are pointing the finger in the wrong direction to suit your desires. The route went up without the bolt.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
Oh Tomcat,
here you go again "blowing bullshit" huh? Please read me carefully if you have the skills. One aspect of possession is about the Needle's tradition and another is my view of possession. They are not the same.
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
I'm thinking the tradition on Superpin was established by Pete Cleveland,and Henry Barber just honored it.
Try again.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
coondogger,
be careful of your accusations. I was there. Henry clipped a fixed piton.
ruppell
climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
His style his route?
If the above holds true and he just got around to chopping the offensive bolt I would say that the route has been returned to the original condition. Everyone who has done the route in the last 34 years did it in an altered state. Because that is true does it mean the bolt needed to stay? If so why? Maybe to make it "safer"? There are other lines on it with no bolts. Clevelends ascent is proud. So was Barbers. If someone added bolts to Clevelands line would it cause the same uproar? I think it would be even worse. The case here is that a first ascionist came back to clean up a bolt that had been added to his line. Period. The summit will know be less attainable because of it. So sack up and see the summit or don't.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
Tomcat,
get this clear: Henry did not do Cleveland's route.
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
Really I'd say Henry shouldn't have had to go back and chop the bolt, locals should have done so themselves.Have some dignity, something to aspire to.
F*#k sakes, I know he didn't do Cleveland's route,nor did I say he did.
Try again.
sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
Needles ethics make JT look like a sport crag..... Even with the bolts that route is scarrrry............ No where near a sport route......
Henry barber, you are selfish.
Glad I got to climb the thing when I did, way cool summit!
I have only had really good experiences with Erik Sutton, but what the f*#k???
You old guys and your bolting wars, what a waste.....
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:59pm PT
I like you guys pretzel logic. A route can be yours but a project to be a route cannot be yours. Then neither can a route except by the contrivances you make.
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Sep 15, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
Like stringing a line from point to point to place a bolt on an established climb? That kind of contrivance? Or just climbing something ground up, that sort of contrivance?
Funny how Henry's friends are "henchmen" while your buds stringing lines from summit to summit are what?....extras?
couchmaster
climber
pdx
Sep 15, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
Please, make it stop. We already have the Wings of Self Righteousness thread over 3000 posts. Henry chopped the bolt and then he led it in bold and grand style. RIGHT Henry?
Please, we can just stop this now.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
Tomcat,
there you go again, You have applied NH standards to what the locals of SD "should" have done. I think we measure dignity different than you folks do down east.
BTW a control freak "should" count each day how many times he uses the word "should" to get a measure of how much of a control freak he is.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
Tomcat,
gee, how your idle mind can imagine?, "extras". There were no extras I third classed these summits dragging a rope around them while this guy hung on a ledge with Ed holding the rope.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
It was a piece of f'ing rock on public propertyIt was a piece of f'ing rock on public propertyIt was a piece of f'ing rock on public property
coondogger,
I follow your logic,
It was a piece of f'ing rock on public property
But I can not believe your statement quoted here means Henry has recourse.
It seems we would all know more if we understood the Tragedy of the Commons? One steals to make his lot better at the expense of the group.
ruppell
climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
One steals to make his lot better at the expense of the group.
What was stolen? Barber has "stolen" a lot of lines. If stealing means that a better climber comes up to a NATURAL line and climbs it than your right it was stolen. Sound like the only thing stolen was a bunch of egos from 34 years ago.
MH2
climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:00pm PT
Dingus McGee you are welcome to your views but they don't seem likely to moderate Henry's attitude. I don't know what actually took place, but it sounds like Henry. Some respect him and others don't, but stirring up the local scene is not new for him. Please let the climb stay the way it was when first done.
http://www.henrybarber.com/categories/media/media_1-1.php
edit:
After reading the ethics/style interview in the above, I see that although Henry does not approve of retrobolting, he also says he is against an individual chopping a bolt before getting approval of the local community.
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:01pm PT
I must admit that at the time I thought the bolt was complete bs. Henry did the route without the bolt. (The fixed pin at the start of the route he clipped was also clipped by Pete Cleveland and has nothing to do with the issue.) Then, I don't know, ten or more people repeated the route without the bolt, including John Bragg and I. The route without the bolt was totally within the realm of competent climbers who knew how to deal with the mental issues of runout climbing. I've heard 5.8 mentioned; Bragg and I thought the upper part was 5.7. Whatever the grade, the Needles already had a number of climbs with seriously runout 5.7-5.8 climbing, and this route, although surely a brilliant bit of climbing, was not a major breakthrough and was fully within Needles climbing traditions going back to the Conn's.
Now I hear some guy who made the route his "project," a guy who was not capable of doing it---as events clearly proved---who had to be rescued while failing on it, and who placed the bolt only after being protected by the rescue lasso, apparently in retribution for having a route that he couldn't do stolen from him (how exactly do you steal a route from someone who can't do it?) then flaunted his incompetence by calling Henry to brag about his "accomplishment."
So now I know that any doubts I might even conceivably have had about that bolt being bs are more fully justified than I ever realized. It should never have been placed. The climb was not a "museum piece" as the Cleveland route has become, a bunch of people had repeated it, and it should have been left as Henry did it.
As I said in another thread, it's not as if there is some terrible scarcity of routes in the Needles, so that the climbing public would be deprived of one of only a very few opportunities to climb. There are lifetimes of routes left to do, and sport climbing galore at Mt. Rushmore for those who want bolted climbing. The only people deprived in this case are those who might want to experience Henry's ascent under the conditions Henry faced.
So yes, the bolt was an outrage and should have been chopped immediately, in my opinion. And it shouldn't have been Henry who did it, it should have been local climbers who respected the traditions and accomplishments of their own area.
But whatever. The bolt has been there for what? 35 years? Wasn't even a second bolt placed? The climb became something else, a symbol of the fact the the climbing world does not always move in the direction of greater achievement.
Personally, I think the time for chopping passed long ago, generations have grown up with the bolt in place, the climb has moved on to a new if less glorious reality, and those new generations feel entitled to the protection they grew up with.
Climbers are bolting routes in the Needles right next to or even coinciding with routes that were done years ago without any bolts. It's a new world, and the climbers who inhabit it are now in charge of either preserving or befouling their nests, as they see fit. The older generation is certainly justified in mouthing off about it, but I think their time---our time---for any kind of direct action is way past.
And now, pardon me while I dodder off to a newly epic adventure on a nice well-protected 5.8.
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
This too shall pass. I trust not too many of the brethren will suffer thru a sleepless night because of the demise of that lonely bolt.
Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
Good to hear from rgold as always but significantly here since he repeated the route in its original configuration.
Henry certainly has an acerbic side to his personality and occasionally got on locals nerves especially when he ticked the current projects. Yanks loved it when he showed the Aussies what was up, soloed good Brit lines and soloed new routes under the Rooskies noses but it's hell when it's your home crag.
The rest of us just get to criticize the art of those who set the standards in our passionate pursuit.
KG
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
Hey Rich,
the use of the word "should" screams 'control'. It seems that these local Dakotans using the self same sovereignty we like when we make decision, have chosen a different course than what some of us would have done in our local area. When can we accept their sovereignty?
They may have a different measure of achievement than you apply to them and you may be their laughing stock. You do seem to acknowledge this near the end of post.
Paul Muhel placed the bolt we are talking about and as I understand it Cleveland's route was to the left of all this--on the rather bare buff face.
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
Sleep less night..? I was snoring as soon as i noticed this was another bolting controversy...
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
As another old climber with some boltless new routes to his (ancient, Cretacious, Guide-book-less) credit:
I did follow this thread with some interest.
I believe RGold and Henry hold the (bolt-less) high ground here.
HJ
climber
Bozeman, Montana
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
When I climbed Superpin for the first time back in the early 80's it had a pin near the bottom and a bolt higher up. My belief was always that Pete Cleveland had placed the pin. Dingus has described how the bolt got placed. (Which was completely out of character for the Needles ethic of placing bolts only from stances on lead on first ascents, period.) For those of you who have not been on Superpin, the upper bolt was placed in such a way that it would not be more that ten feet away from you no matter where you chose to climb. Dingus talks about Pete's route being "totally independent" from subsequent ascents. This is a little misleading as all the lines people have chosen to climb have the same start. Pete has always been a hero of mine, and when I finally was able to climb Superpin and Hairy Pin it was important to me to try and emulate his style, (if not his exact route), so I didn't clip the bolt. I've been on Superpin many times since, and never did clip the bolt. It is bold climbing, but hardly out of character for the needles to climb Superpin without clipping the bolt on the upper face. Sometime in the last few years (maybe even a decade ago, or longer? My aging dottering brain doesn't do time that well anymore) the pin got replaced by a bolt. With modern camming gear, this was hardly necessary. I'd been backing up the pin with small cams for years. So, Superpin is doable without bolts. Plenty of ascents were done before a bolt was placed. I won't miss the bolts, although, I suppose they will probably reappear. It saddens me that it is seemingly ever more acceptable to bring climbs down to ones own level. This thread seems to expose the long history of this as well as some of the (in my mind) suspect ways it is justified.
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 16, 2011 - 12:10am PT
Dingus, how're things?
No, "should" doesn't imply control, it just expresses my opinion about the behavior I would have hoped for. And although I'll admit, upon rereading, that my acceptance could be called ungracious, I believe I made it clear that we should indeed accept their "sovereignty," like it or not.
As for measures of achievement, I'll certainly agree that my standard is not the same as locals bolting, say, the Kamps-Powell route and Sandberg Peak or the Kamps route or something right next to the Kamps route on the Bell Ringer. I'm also quite sure, as you say, that those Dakotans couldn't care less about what I might think.
Indeed, if they cared about any kind of public opinion, they wouldn't be drilling next to or on top of existing routes. And if other climbers find that acceptable, the Cathedral Spires will become one of an expanding list of mediocre sport-climbing areas. (Some would say it isn't much more as a trad climbing area, but for the most part, the naysayers haven't actually tried the climbs...)
Let's be clear. Old and washed up as I am, I'm climbing well enough to go and chop those routes by myself. But I'm not doing that or even thinking of doing that, because, as I said, my time for action is well past. In any case, loud squawking notwithstanding, I've never chopped a bolt. So I'll keep trying to carry the flag a little while longer verbally---I think that is a responsibility the older generation inherits---but I'm not going to start bashing up the rock in some quixotic search for bygone days, most certainly not from a home base 2,000 miles away from the day-to-day action.
Much more importantly Dingus, I hope all is well with you and yours.
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 16, 2011 - 12:34am PT
If I remember correctly from moral philosophy courses, the correct word to use in the situation may be "ought". Meaning mainly that some action has some moral force, but perhaps none other - but also allowing lots of discussion as to whether "ought" is an imperative, and if so in what circumstances.
The WoS debacle resurfaced after 29 years, and this one after 34. Do I detect a trend? What long-forgotten sins, real or imaginary, may I soon be called to task for?
ruppell
climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 12:42am PT
Mighty Hiker
You may be called to task for your sins. It's up to you whether you answer or not. I do see your point though. Hopefully some of the responsible parties actually answer that call to task.
Ol' Skool
Trad climber
Oakhurst, CA
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:59am PT
On this whole issue of "ownership" of routes-
I've heard of a number of first ascensionists that have been approached for "permission" to add bolts after the fact- Most of the time, they give it reasonable consideration, if the route has developed a reputation. But once the route is up, do they really have the right to? After day 1, does the route have a life of its own?
Is a route supposed to be more like a snapshot in time, or a video?
One could argue that, even with permission of the FA-ists to alter by retro-bolting, death-wish masochists have been deprived of duplicating the original experience-
ruppell
climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 02:07am PT
Ol'skool
One could argue that, even with permission of the FA-ists to alter by retro-bolting, death-wish masochists have been deprived of duplicating the original experience-
The death wish masochists that you speak of don't care. Just because a bolt is there it does not mean you have to clip it. So you can do a route in the style it was first done. The problem is that after a bolt gets added to an existing route people do clip it and EXPECT it to be there. Without that bolt they freak out. Probably something the guy on the FA was doing as well, but he had the mental toughness to finish the route. Sometimes that mental thing is what really counts.
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 16, 2011 - 02:08am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/447487/Museum-climbs
ruppell
climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 02:29am PT
Mighty hiker
thanks for the link. didn't have time to read all of it but browsing it seems to be the same line of thinking. Climbs get put up in the style of the day. Get repeated in the style of the day. Then that style changes to embrace a new day. So fU?k the old day and get on with climbing? BS. If someone added a bolt or twelve to Bacher-Yerian people would chop them in a heartbeat. Why is this any different? Some museum climbs need to be there for the simple pleasure of the head space it take to climb them. Isn't that what it's all about anyway? Pushing yourself as hard as you can mentally and physically?
Ol' Skool
Trad climber
Oakhurst, CA
Sep 16, 2011 - 02:34am PT
Ruppell-
Absolute agreement. However, I'd argue that the mind game would be far more intense leaving the ground knowing that the bolt wasn't there (as opposed to having an "optional" clip, ace in the hole fallback)- therefore not the same experience.
Mighty Hiker- enjoyed the link- another reinforcement to the idea that any route is ever changing and bolts aren't as fail safe as the day they were done- another variable that takes us away from the "original" experience.
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Sep 16, 2011 - 02:36am PT
Chill, you are right. I only read the gossip pages. I have revoked my critisism upthread, despite what I've read...
And OK, I change my position on the issue, also. While still having the opinion I expressed above on the unlikelihood of a route staying as a FA did it over the long haul, I simultaneously support the action of chopping the bolt. If there is something close enough for survivable pro, let the foul bolt be gone.
Never miss a foul bolt. Let the standards of the future rise above the bolt. Its not like new shoes haven't made the route ever so much easier anyway in the 30 years. The relevance has changed irregardless of the bolt, and the reduction in difficulty supports the irrelevance of the bolt.
If he wanted it, he can have it.
Let the bolt wars begin.
ruppell
climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 02:49am PT
Ol' skool
Yeah totally different mindset leaving the ground KNOWING that bolt is not there. That's why it becomes in issue in the first place. Fact is Barber never agreed to have that bolt placed. Someone did it to make themselves feel better about the fact they couldn't do the route in it's original style. Without that added bolt a very select few climbers do the route. Simply because they KNOW it is not there. Now people feel robbed of an experience that wasn,t the true experience.
rokjox
And OK, I change my position on the issue,
I know it's out of context but holly shiit? Never thought I'd here those words from you.
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:01am PT
some dakotans care what you think. I have not done the route and now am sure I never will.
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:04am PT
Ol'skool, a climber really ought to know better than to refer to other climbers as "death-wish masochists." There is hardly a trad climb in the world that doesn't have a potentially dangerous runout somewhere; and every such instance is as much an invitations to death-wish masochism as anything on Henry's Superpin route. It follows that the entire sport could easily be characterized as death-wish masochism, and surely is by those who do not understand it.
As for "snapshot or video," a climb is nothing like either. It is a piece of stone, that ought to be left alone as much as possible, in my opinion. And really, is a climb supposed to sprout a bolt at every place someone not up to it has an epic? Is that really the "video" modern climbers want for their resources?
Mighty, I anticipated the link to the museum climb thread in my previous post. The "museum climb" on Superpin is Cleveland's original route, which has never been repeated and which no one has ever considered bolting.
The Barber variation goes at a reasonable grade for runout climbing, and, with multiple repeats, was not destined for museum status when the climb was in its original unbolted state.
ruppell
climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:17am PT
rgold
As for "snapshot or video," a climb is nothing like either. It is a piece of stone, that ought to be left alone as much as possible, in my opinion. And really, is a climb supposed to sprout a bolt at every place someone not up to it has an epic? Is that really the dynamic evolution modern climbers want for their resources?
Is that what modern climbers want? For the most part yes. Safe = Fun. The issue again is that this bolt sprouted up 34 years ago. Everyone who has done the route since then has done it in an altered state. They probably didn't even know it was altered. Take that bolt away and people feel a right of intitlement to have it there. I think this may be the real issue. You did it in it's original state. PROUD. Now I have a chance to do it in that same state. Will I take up the challenge or will I be one who cries the bolt should be replaced? That is the modern climber.
Edited to add this
http://www.dynamicfitnessonline.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/i-can-do-anything.gif
steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Sep 16, 2011 - 06:23am PT
I remember sitting next to climber, who I didn't know, in a crowded room, discussing the ethics and tradition of climbing. There were perhaps 120 climbers gathered there.
This guy leaned over to me and seriously said that he felt that he had the right to put a bolt in anywhere he wanted--even on an established route!
Obviously, this climber's opinion is in the minority; to the extreme. It is rare to see a bolt placed on a well established route and I hope the tradition continues.
David Groth
Trad climber
WI
Sep 16, 2011 - 08:55am PT
Don’t forget Barber did not do the first assent of super pin! The pin he clipped to get on the route was put in by Pete Cleveland. The Cleveland route starts at the Barber route and wraps the spire by some 5.11 variation done in 1967. I have done the route several times and think it possible Pete climbed the Barber route; it is the obvious path of least resistance. Barber adds a bolt to the spire. The third assent added one more, the story I have always heard is a local climber got freaked out and friends swung in a bolt kit. Yes the rules were broken back in the early 80’s and that bolt has been replaced at least once allowing tons of climbers to enjoy the classic spire. I am not saying I agree with what happened and when I did it a few years later thought it was lame. But the damage was done why add to it!
In my humble option he would have right to chop the added bolt but not the whole route. But 34 years later it just seems like it should left alone. In addition the history in my option is not completely clear which should give Barber reason to leave it alone. I asked Pete to chime it but admire his silence.
Adding fix gear to an established route is wrong with out the First ascent permission we all know that! This one fall into a little different category in my option and I think a lot of climbers feel that way. I wanted to defend my cut and paste of “who cares” it is a complicated debate.
DG
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 16, 2011 - 09:01am PT
Rgold and others,
Rgold where is your spine? You seem to brag about having never chopped a bolt yet you want others to do the chopping. Is this a sham?
Mission Accomplished-- A friend of mine from the Black Hills ask me to argue their case of 34 years of autonomy with the Superpin Bolt on Super Topo site because there was not much input coming from the Mountain Project site. I have tried to express some of the locals points of view having grown up some 40 miles from the Needles. Mike Todd may have put the bolt in for the safety of others. I do not know what his motives were--kind of a quiet fellow.
What I have argued are not my concerns over this bolt. My attitude about route issues is quite private but I will say I do what I want to after some thought. I would rather be putting up routes and that is what I have been doing the last 34 years. What happens to others' routes is of little concern to me and what happens to the routes of my bygone days is of little concern to me. Top priority to me is redpointing the last few lines I have been working on. I will let others manage my past efforts as they please.
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 16, 2011 - 09:01am PT
I've heard of a number of first ascensionists that have been approached for "permission" to add bolts after the fact- Most of the time, they give it reasonable consideration, if the route has developed a reputation. But once the route is up, do they really have the right to? After day 1, does the route have a life of its own?
Is a route supposed to be more like a snapshot in time, or a video?
There is never going to be willing consensus on this. Revel in it. Do we really want a National Register of Historic Routes? Where you need a Federal permit to alter one of the gems of American climbing?
Yall think that would be preferable to the wild west model we use now?
I don't.
DMT
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 16, 2011 - 10:12am PT
After 34 years it seems a bit like an attempt to get back in the spotlight......
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 16, 2011 - 10:17am PT
Why yes!
Kris Gorny
Trad climber
Rochester, MN
Sep 16, 2011 - 10:51am PT
Dave G, so help me get two things straight here, Henry Barber had all bolts chopped, including the one he used himself on his ascent? And second, it is actually Pete Cleveland who may have got the first ascent on what is now known as Henry Barber's route?
Hard Rock
Trad climber
Montana
Sep 16, 2011 - 10:58am PT
I solved the Chalk Wars back in the 80's -
see CLIMBING - April 1984 Issue 83 so I might have a
couple of ideas that will help here.
1) Have a bolt war with yourself.
See http://millcreekreport.blogspot.com/2010/12/bolt-war-of-one.html
2) As I've told friend who were in Boulder when they were having bolt wars - Just come to Montana and we will give you your own piece of rock. Then you can just go with you own ethics.
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 16, 2011 - 11:00am PT
This too shall pass. I trust not too many of the brethren will suffer thru a sleepless night because of the demise of that lonely bolt.
I know I won't.
Good one Jim.
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 16, 2011 - 11:49am PT
Wow, wish a guy well and he calls you spineless and a sham. I guess its a good thing I didn't insult him, eh?
Dingus, I've done a lot of routes in the Needles. But I live in New York, 2,0000 miles away, and have always thought of myself as a visitor. I would never chop a bolt in the Needles, that option is up to the locals.
I'm really sorry you felt the need to take a cheap shot. I do obviously have opinions about the situation, which I have recorded here, perhaps immoderately. If that makes me "spineless" and my opinions a "sham," then so be it, but a person who now says he is only arguing as a proxy for others and that his own opinion is "private" might pause and reflect on his own authenticity and courage before publicly proclaiming those qualities to be lacking in others.
A number of responses to my posts seem to me to misunderstand what I've said. So let me try to be as clear as possible.
1. My opinion is that the locals should have chopped that bolt the day after it was placed, most especially in view of how it got there, as recounted by Dingus. (I saw Paul Muehl do exactly that on another route, by the way, so there is certainly local precedent for immediate action.) Do the current locals have "autonomy" in this situation? Yes. Did they do they right thing? Well, not in my book.
2. Now that the bolt (or bolts) have been in place for 34 years, they have become a feature of the route for more than one climbing generation and ought to have been left in place.
From everything I can tell, the Barber variation on Superpin is one of several routes with moderate climbing that were climbed for years in their natural state and then were bolted one day by a self-appointed guardian of public safety. One cannot help but marvel at the collective resolve of the climbing communities in the UK and Dresden for their abilities to preserve their routes, in some cases for a century, in the same state as the first ascenders encountered. It is clear that the locals in the Needles have decided to leave a very different legacy.
Kris, Pete's route and Henry's variation diverge after the initial moves; Pete did not stay left on the blunt arete where Henry went. There was initially a fixed pin that both Pete and Henry clipped. It may be that Pete placed the pin, but I doubt it. He was not the first person to consider a route on Superpin, and indeed some famous and very accomplished climbers had had a look before Pete's astonishing success. I think the fixed pin was replaced by a bolt later on as the placement deteriorated, with no one on any side of the various issues complaining about that.
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Sep 16, 2011 - 11:52am PT
Things that make you go, "hmmm...".
Interesting.
I've always wondered if climbers have more rules to follow than golf...
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 16, 2011 - 11:55am PT
Brian we have conventions and schools of thought, and very, very few rules. A few of our 'golf courses' (climbing areas} have some stout rules but at least out west here we still have a big sky to play beneath. I hope it stays that way for a few decades more...
as always its conflicting ethics and disagreements over personal conduct that create the friction. Dueling pistols are always an option!
DMT
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Sep 16, 2011 - 11:58am PT
not really Brian,, only one rule applies. LEAVE established routes as you found them. Its JUST common courtesy...
couchmaster
climber
pdx
Sep 16, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
Well the rest of us still luvs you Rgold. Maybe even more now.
They say "opinions are like as#@&%es, everyone has one and they all stink", but yours doesn't, it's only true for the rest of us as#@&%es:-)
Thanks!
BTW, it looks like the locals want a bunch of non-locals to weight in on this issue, you, more than most here, should have serious weight on it. Henry, were here here, would weigh more than the rest of us. In fact, I believe he does these dayz. LOL
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Sep 16, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
Yeah, rules.
The one I've always appreciated is honesty. Just report what happened, "right" or "wrong". Can be fairly murky. I tend to sort things black or white, but, that can be hard to do from a distance (and even harder from close up sometimes!).
Even though it doesn't seem so at times, spraying about a topic on the 'net, isn't nearly as personal as either adding a bolt, or, removing one.
We do tend to go the rounds on this stuff. Glass half full, I suppose, but, its part of our passion of this "leisure time" activity. Its good.
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
DMT, Unfortunatly I think you are wrong on this one. We have and entite asshat full to the brim of unwriten rules many of which are completly assanine. Just because these rulze are unwritten does not in any way shape or form mean that they are not Rules and enforced rules at that. heck you can even get shat appon for breaking our damn rules.........
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
not really Brian,, only one rule applies. LEAVE established routes as you found them. Its JUST common courtesy...
Ok, I agree with you.
Now does that mean that Barber was right to chop a bolt that had been there for 1/3 century, or not?
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
Didn't I read that Henry's partner, not Henry, chopped the bolt.....hmm.
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
DMT, Unfortunatly I think you are wrong on this one. We have and entite asshat full to the brim of unwriten rules many of which are completly assanine.
Most of those unwritten rules don't apply to me.
You're free to toe their line though!
DMT
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
I have gotten pretty good at ignoring the ethics police in my old age.
ec
climber
ca
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
Barber doesn't waver from how he likes to climb; bamboo shafts with a sling to 'no cams.' Bravo to him. If someone 'changed' the character of YOUR route what would YOU do? I think most of you would be f*cking pissed. Sometimes it takes time to take care of unfinished business and without all the press, which the OP just sprayed all over the world for our uninvited opinion...
ec
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
I have gotten pretty good at ignoring the ethics police in my old age.
Much if not most can be avoided with:
"What's the first rule of Fight Club?"
DMT
ec
climber
ca
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
DMT,
Thx...
Silver
Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
EC
I have not put up that many routes but a couple I have done both got bolts added to them. The one in the new Donner Guide reads as follows.
"The two bolts that were added will be removed soon"
The other route was bolted by a ST regular here without asking. I would chop it but it has become the most climbed route on the wall and there has only been one accent of the line in the style I did it due to the fact it will break yer legs and kill you if yer not paying attention.
Do I care? Not really I did them for me not you and you get whats there now.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
Rich,
my comments and my overt actions of accusation are the ways I have chosen to get the most out this discussion for the purpose of (I hope) the Needles crowd to read and think about what action they may want to take.
Especially your comments are pertinent because I know you have climbed here and put up routes. Many others have to but I do not know them personally. Your late entry into this post made me wonder whether you would log in on this. Most of your ideas seem quite thought-full, and so either way none of it is intended as a cheap shot. Thanks for the effort.
Dennis
done for now, going to country
couchmaster
climber
pdx
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
It looks like the locals want a bunch of non-locals to weigh in on this issue. As there is already a long line of poseurs, I'll go get to the back of that line, although most of the poseurs don't know that they are poseurs. Henry, were here here, would weigh more than the rest of us for weighing in on this issue. In fact, I believe he does these dayz. LOL
Until then, let the spit fly at the monitor by a bunch of posers who've never been to the area, (interspersed by a very few actual Needles climbers like Rich) since you invited us all to do this very thing.
SPEW ON MY POSEUR BROBHAMS......
ec
climber
ca
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:40pm PT
Like I said, "...uninvited opinion."
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
well guys this IS the internet. And yes i'm a poseur in the fact i haven't done jack diddly in the needles..(although i did help in keeping it from burning once upon a time). But I have met Henry and he was a very cool person to me, hence my interest in this topic. But I would caution that bringing this to a popular internet site may not have been the best course of action if unwanted opinion was not desired and or expected...
couchmaster
climber
pdx
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
Doesn't matter Ron, as long as anyone HAPPENS TO HAVE A KEYBOARD AND AN OPINION , bring it on. Even non-climbers are welcome to weight in, land managers, everyone. They asked
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:25am PT
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Shet! How many forum topics are we dealing with?!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:26am PT
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You start at the ground and climb to the top without resorting to any aid, and making the minimum possible alteration of the route from the state that you found it.
Not able to maintain this style, the first ascent attempt is abandoned in a manner that leaves it as unaltered as possible making it available for future attempts.
Like many things in climbing I think this is somewhat situational.
(I can't blieve I'm saying this as for years I was a fierce advocate ground up style and thought that rap bolters were vandals.)
The fact is that most sport climbing crags are usually best established on rappel. However I take exception to rappel bolting in areas where climbing ground up has been the tradition, and provides an excellent adventure. IMO climbers who set up routes on rappel in places like this are cheating themselves of a great experience. I have solved this dilemma for myself by deciding never to rap bolt a new route, so I've never established a sport climb (although I sure enjoy climbing them.) With no experience in such work I'd probably suck at it anyway.
edit: Man,look what happened while I was thinking...
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:28am PT
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The exception to this, of course, is chipping, gluing, and manufacturing which is simply unacceptable.
If you don't like the holds that I chipped, DON'T USE THEM! Fk...people are sooooo annoying at times.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:49am PT
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U chip, U die.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:55am PT
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no re-editing
maybe this topic is induces a raging blindness that any one would presume to define the best style.
Please note that I purposely said best style for FIRST ASCENT
it is interesting to contemplate what the purpose of the first ascent is and how it affects the choice of a less than best style
what we would agree on, I believe, is that given a high quality route, that we are more impressed if the first ascent was conducted in the best style than if it were put in with less than best style.
We might not care at all about the first ascent style on any subsequent ascent.
But I think that the first ascent is special.
If Dingus Milktoast wants to accuse me of being a troll to invalidate my definition he's welcome to the ad hominem argument, but he hasn't provided a counter...
...and the discussion of bolts comes later, I think.
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MH2
climber
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Jun 20, 2014 - 10:59am PT
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Climb the route however you like. Leave no trace. Don't report it. If others climb it and decide it was done before, you lose style points, but your soul can stay sorta smug because no one will know who the a**hole was. Unless they get DNA confirmation it was you.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 11:04am PT
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if you read my definition it actually doesn't say anything about buck naked, shoes, chalk and on sight...
those are elaborations of the meaning of "aid," but I think that there is considerable less debate there...
I've climbed in Elbsandstein where you have to rub the sweat off your hands on your pants, the rock I was climbing on was very dark, and heated up in the sun... so it was a real bitch and chalk would have been great... but it is true that going without the aid of chalk definitely made those climbs different.
When the East German climbers couldn't get good western climbing shoes, they adopted a shoeless climbing style too, so once again, you could put shoes in the category of "aid"
I think this is open to discussion, future technologies may be even more enabling.
The point being where technology enables anyone the ability to get up anything.
Once that happens, climbing as we know it ceases to be.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jun 20, 2014 - 11:04am PT
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from my daughters birthday lunch 5 minutes ago
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 20, 2014 - 11:05am PT
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OPINIONS DON’T ESTABLISH FIRST ASCENTS!
AMEN TO THAT!!!!!
More climbing, less beating around the old topic!
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 11:09am PT
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Holy sh!tshow, batman! But predictable .....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 20, 2014 - 11:09am PT
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Ed,
Aid climbs are disallowed from the "best style" category by definition?
Just verifying what I think I'm seeing in your proposed definition.
Any insights on or clarifications of that?
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