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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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Jun 14, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
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Good stuff, Marty! I learn so much through your posts. Thanks for your tireless efforts to keep the history alive.
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the idle rich
climber
Estes Park, CO
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Jun 16, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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Marty...you haven't mentioned the Bugaboo yet, but I saw the ones pictured in the 1968 catalog. I'm pretty sure these pre-date those. They are somewhat crudely made and the eyes are squared off instead of round. The later versions had a lightening hole. The diamond C is barely visible. Any idea when these were made?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 16, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
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Knifeblades and Bugaboos
 1959 - left eye, square outer eye profile
Chouinard firsts: "1959: Horizontal Knifeblade"
photos by Peter Haan, Basic Rockcraft, Ken Boche, Don Lauria
1960 - left eye, hex shaped outer eye, flame cut
Chouinard firsts: "1960: Bugaboo"
KBs are the shorter/thinner sizes, square tip
Bugaboos are the thicker/longer sizes, round tip
sizes: at least 4
1960 - right eye, hex shaped outer edge, flame cut
photos by Ken Boche and Steve Grossman
1965? - right eye, round shaped outer eye, no lightening hole, hammered/rolled taper, not stamped with logo
Chouinard Bugaboos are normally a left eye.
sizes: at least 3
photo by hoipolloi
1965? - left eye, round shaped outer eye, no lightening hole, hammered/rolled taper
6 sizes in 1966 Ski Hut catalog: 2 KB, 4 Bugaboo
1: 7/64 x 1 1/2, 2: .025-.080 x 1 1/2, 3: 1/8 x 1 1/2, 4: 5/32 x 3, 5: 1/4 x 2, 6: 1/4 x 3,
4 sizes in 1968: 2 KB, 2 Bugaboo
1972 - left eye, round shaped outer eye, lightening hole, machine ground taper, chrome nickel steel in KB size, chrome molybdenum steel in Bugaboo sizes
8 sizes: KB, KB thick, short thin, long thin, short med, long med, short thick, long thick
1975 - logo: ITALY INTERALP CAMP
8? sizes
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jun 16, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
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Marty: Re dating what Steve Grossman and I have been calling the 1968 catalog as actually the 1969 catalog makes sense, especially when you have one with a Sept 1969 Postmark.
What makes my head swirl is that I have one of the 1970 catalogs you mention with a April 21, 1969 postmark on it.
The Chouinard 70 catalog I have is a fold-out brochure and was was designed as a supplement to their existing catalog, which is likely the catalog that I will now start calling the 68/69 catalog.
The April 21, 1969 postmark is a real head-scratcher, unless I accept that the 68/69 catalog was first published in 1968.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
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You guys are awesome! I was just laying out the Bugaboos and you already did the work. Sweet! I love that old Chouinard Bugaboo shape! My guess is those are the 1960 original shape. The big question is: when did the 1960 Bugaboo and Knifeblade shape change to the 1963/or 64/ or 65 classic shape?
Another question is: Besides the 1960 Bugaboo, does anybody have any Bugaboos or Knifeblades with the "C" and no USA? Those right eye Bubaboos are interesting also.
In the scraps of a Chouinard 1971 catalog it reads July 1971, angles now have a cleaner taper and a second hole added for weight reduction and clipping on vert cracks. I am sharing what catalog I have and you will see the darkness. What is cool about the 1971 catalog is that it only lists 7 sizes of Hexentrics! So that shows that the 8, 9, 10 Hexentrics were added in 1972. (cool history stuff!).
The only difference between my 1970 catalog price list and your 1968 catalog price list is the 4 webbing items are removed in 1970. Your catalog must be a late 1969. So the question remains. Is the catalog with the gear on the cover a 1968 or 1967. """"""For the climbing company owners reading this thread, please put the catalog dates on your catalogs! Yipe!""""""""
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jun 18, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
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I have these two pictures available. I do have some other sizes but unable to get to them right now.
When I called it a Bugaboo, the seller corrected me and said it was a Knifeblade....
This was purchased in The Valley from the back of Chouinard's Station Wagon 1962.
No USA Stamp Marty!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
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Roots - looking for Knifeblade or Bugaboos with mid 1960s die cut shape that have "C" stamp but no "USA." The peg you show is pretty thick so I would say it is a 1960 Bugaboo, not a Knifeblade.
A friend named Art stopped by and filled my collection in with many missing items. Art says that the silver coating on the pitons is Cadmium plating and Chouinard sold these pitons for Marine use. I am surprised Chouinard didn't advertise this in the catalogs. Art also has a 2" steel Bong with lightening holes that has "C" stamp but no USA.
In 1975 Chouinard farms out the Lost Arrow manufacturing to Camp. Did Chouinard at this time also have Camp mfg the Knifeblades and Bugaboos? In the 1980 newsletter shown below it states that Knifeblades and Bugaboos are "now manufactured here in Ventura." Since they are made in the USA, Chouinard stamped them Italy because why? Maybe most of the C-Italy KBs and Bugaboos are actually a Camp product, and the "C" stamp with Italy is there because Chouinard was the designer? While in the USA Chouinard continued with just the "C" stamp and the "USA."
Lost Arrows (Italy) eventually were painted with a thick black coating. Looking at the Super Long Dongs, the first year Super Long Dongs 1978 have no coating and are stamped "Camp Interalp." In 1987 the thick coating was added and the stamp changed to "Camp." So around 1987 / 1988 the thick black coating was added to Lost Arrows also. Photo below.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
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A few notes about catalogs. The information presented in the catalogs does not necessarily reflect the order in which products were created. So the catalog information is actually a running/shifting list, over the information being "Bible." For example: At many of the climbing trade or Retailers shows, the catalogs presented to the dealers are for the next season. So if the show is summer of 2010, many the manufacturers hand to the dealers the 2011 catalog at that summer 2010 show, so the manufacturer can get guaranteed preseason sales orders to somewhat know how many pieces to create. Even if the manufacturer supplies secondary dealers, example Chouinard selling to REI for REI to sell to the public, the items in the REi catalog may be "end of lot" items that they got a deal on since the newer redesigned pieces were now available from the mfg. So when piecing the mysteries together, keep in mind that most catalogs are printed in the fall of the year previous to the actual catalog year date.
If Chouinard knew that an item was going to be presented the following year, that item would show up in the "Firsts list," but if the year item was created within the same year catalog time, it would not appear at all in the list until the following catalog printed the information of when it was actually created.
My best example is that in 1975 Crack N' Ups were created and sold to the public. It shows this in the "Firsts list." But looking at my 1973 Chouinard Supplement guide, Chouinard shows Crack N" Ups are available #1 - #6. "Available in the fall of 1973." Metolius listed their BRD belay device in their catalogs over three years, and after that third year the BRD then came available for public sale. Great for advertising but it sure messes up the historical truth. Yvon many times has told me to please create the history for him, and then he will stick by it. He too says that he does not remember the correct historical alignment of historical truth, over what appears in the catalogs.
REI started carrying Chouinard gear in 1965. In the 1965 REI catalog it shows Chouinard items, only three sizes of Lost Arrows available with the 63/64 shape. I would say that this is what Chouinard offered at the time, but REI lists all Chouinard products but no Kbs or Bugaboos are mentioned. Maybe at first there were only three sizes of Lost Arrows available in 63/64. Then in 1965/ 66 the Lost Arrows went to 8 different. So here is an example of REI showing 1964 products for the 1965 catalog. Notice that there are no 1/2" or 5/8" angles available because the angles were first created in 1965.
I also found a photo of a RURP that is stamped "RURP" in the 1966 Holubar catalog. So this RURP would have been a 1965 or before item to make it into the 66 catalog. The Holubar 1966 catalog only lists 7 LAs missing the Long Dong. The Chouinard 1965 or 66 catalog shows the Long Dong available.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jun 19, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
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Marty! You are doing great work on this thread.
It is great that you bring up that manufacturers would often generate and publish a catalog for their wholesale outdoor store buyers, before they would send out a similar catalog to their retail customers.
In the 1970's, it wasn't quite as common for outdoor suppliers to have similar catalogs for outdoor store wholesale buyer use and also for retail customers.
I recall that Chouinard would usually issue a catalog in early fall that wholesale buyers used to order sring/summer items, so they would have those in their stores at the appropriate time the next year, when someone might buy them.
A similar catalog, with retail prices, would mail out to Chouinard's customer mailing list the next spring, and at later dates by customer request. Many Chouinard retailers sold his informative catalog to their customers, with suggested retail prices in the catalog.
However, Royal Robbins and his importing company Mountain Paraphernalia printed a catalog solely for outdoor store buyers.
Now, since most all outdoor gear manufacturing is done offshore: most manufacturers need orders for spring/summer shipment by mid-summer and their catalogs for wholesale accounts usually don't match those that retail buyers see.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
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Looking for proof of:
Knife Blade and Bugaboo with "C" but no "USA" stamp on Mid 1960s die cut version.
Bong 2" with lightening holes aluminum with "C" but no "USA" stamp.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Chouinard Bongs -
For Bong "First's" history I have listed:
1960 Alloy sheet metal Bong, (how many sizes?), Have a 3" from Bridwell
1961 Aluminum Bongs, 2, 2 1/2, 3, 4", solid sides, steel rivet
1965 Aluminum Bong 2" with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" but no "USA", (one size available)
1965 Steel 2" Bong with lightening holes, "C" stamp but no "USA" (one size available)
1966/67? Aluminum Bong 2" with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" and "USA", (one size available)
1966/67? Steel 2" Bong with lightening holes, "C" and "USA" stamp (one size available)
1968 Aluminum Bongs 2 1/2, 3, 4", with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" and "USA" stamp,
( 2 1/2" Bong center hole measures 1 7/16")
1970? Aluminum Bongs 4 sizes with lightening holes, thicker alum stock,"C" and "USA stamp,
(2 1/2" Bong center hole measures 1 5/16")
1970 Steel Bongs 2 1/2, 3, 4", available with lightening holes. Discontinued in 1972.
For history notes - attached to Chouinard:
Steve has a prototype 1 1/2 aluminum angle.
I have a 1961 Chouinard aluminum Bong 2 1/4" prototype from Don Lauria.
Frost / Dolt alum bongs shown earlier for 2nd ascent of Nose, two carabiner holes.
Tom Cochrane - Frost 1960 steel bongs with lightening holes, template.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 06:24am PT
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Lost Arrow lineup, still missing a few arrows but almost complete
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 06:41am PT
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Just in time for the Arizona summer heat, my air conditioning died in my truck. Luckily for me the repair shop is next to the Hiking Shack so I had time to start putting together the Chouinard display. For now the Chouinard top of the display is in over the old display of Cam devices. Once I get the Chouinard history dialed in, I will put the other many items under glass. I am hoping to have the Chouinard display completed in the next few months. By the amount of Chouinard gear I have, this display should TOTALLY rock!
As I see it in poetry words: "Upon seeing his creations, Yvon wept!"
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jun 26, 2014 - 07:58am PT
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Impressive!
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jun 27, 2014 - 09:21am PT
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Here's something fun for Friday:
First run Alcoa
Tell us the story Steve!!
PS that Bugaboo up thread I posted is a spare. Available for trade : )
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
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I still continually ponder the question on why did William 'Dolt' Feuerer commit suicide. For years I figured it had to do with Chouinard and the amount of new gear being introduced at that 1966-1971 time. Besides Chouinard there was Forrest, Troll, Clog, Colorado Nuts, Moac, Peck, and many more. Maybe Dolt was not willing to compete with these new gear companies and worked himself into exhaustion, at the same time he did not want to show failure.
"I always hoped that the reason Dolt died was because he couldn't hold romance in his life, and he put the passion he sought for into his products." Quotes like this make great hollywood movies!
I believe Dolt looked up to Chouinard, because of Chouinard's climbing skills and his passion for creating climbing gear. They shared a common passion, which shows in Dolts 1960 catalog showing Chouinard products. Was Dolt a major climber? Did he climb every weekend and do expeditions and stuff? I know of a few climbs that Dolt was on, but not many. Chouinard was living the climbing and surfing lifestyle. Dolt was partying with Harding on the Nose, yo-yoing the lower half. The missing piece to my Dolt puzzle may be these Bongs used on the second ascent of the Nose.
I keep looking at these bongs made by Frost / Dolt for the Sept 1960 second ascent of the Nose (thanks Clint). I don't believe that the second hole is on the Bong for weight reduction, but is there for a second tie off option. The Bongs get used on the climb and then are sold afterwards to the public. So at this point Dolt is upset with Frost for selling off the Bongs and giving Chouinard ideas. Dolt still advertises Chouinard products in the Summit magazines until summer 1961. Then mid 1961 Chouinard introduces his line of 4 aluminum bongs for sale, which are similar to the Frost / Dolt bongs. Dolt announces he is out of business January 1962. No more orders accepted after January 31, 1962. Dolt is done with climbing gear.
Chouinard keeps the climbing lifestyle through the early 1960s, while creating a few new pitons and joins the Army in winter 1962 - July 1964. Chouinard hardly advertised his products and only single page price lists of his products were sent to climbing stores until 1965 (?). Dolt works for McDonnell Douglas as an engineer. Chouinard moves to Ventura CA in 1966 and teams up with Tom Frost creating the Great Pacific Iron Works. Many new products start to be created. Dolt announces that he is back in business July 1966. Many new products start to be created.
Now is this the start of Dolt getting back at Frost and getting back at Chouinard by challenging their craftsmanship? Both Dolt and Chouinard/Frost create amazing products. The best gear available at that time. Both at this time put the "USA" on their products. Dolts stardolt 5 super steel pitons are listed as indestructible. Dolt shows his ego through his quirky Dolt advertisements in the Summit magazines. Dolt is the "Master craftsman to mountaineers." Maybe Chouinard and Frost didn't care about Dolts (possible vendetta), and Dolt became frustrated not having the subconscious challenge being presented. Dolt would then find himself buried in orders to fill of his gear, the gear that he lost the reason to create.
This is just a Marty theory so don't take this story as history. Also Tom and Yvon, I love you guys and I am not saying that you killed the Dolt. Good grief! :) I am just saying that Dolt was a very passionate man and something on the inside of Dolts head was bugging him, and bugging him for a long time. I am copying this post to the Dolt Stories thread.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 27, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
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While I think it's interesting to to consider the factors for
the relative business success of Chouinard/Frost and Dolt,
it is uncomfortable to speculate on how much this might have been a factor
in his suicide. There were other frustrations in his life,
such as his lack of success in relationships with women, which has
been mentioned in articles.
Given that his biological daughter posts here, I think it would not be
a positive thing for her to have it discussed here.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jun 27, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
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Well said Clint.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jun 27, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
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Marty
I agree with Clint in not having it discussed or posted as well on ST.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 27, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
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Audrey has posted here quite a bit about the medical condition that she shares with her dad that was the prime contributing factor in Bill committing suicide so the topic is out in the open if you would bother to go back and read her posts on the subject.
Tom and Bill were very close friends. Tom was Bill's best man when he first got married. Tom used to ride his bike across the Santa Monica basin to visit Bill's shop and tinker with gear which is how he first got interested in designing and making hardware. In the early 1960s when Tom started to work with Yvon, he began to notice that Bill would cover up certain things that he was working on and it became clear that Bill felt some betrayal from this association.
Once Tom left his aerospace engineering career (which also was Bill's bread and butter) and partnered with Yvon full-time it really hurt Bill and the rift was never addressed or had a chance to heal. Tom has expressed to me some regret about not attending to his friend's need in all of the excitement surrounding Chouinard Equipment. Bill loved the climbing gear business but it was unrequited love and his lack of sound and practical business acumen prevented him from making a real go of it as was his heartfelt desire.
Don Lauria spoke very eloquently about all of this at the first Oakdale Festival. It would have been nice if Audrey had been able to see the full range of her dad's design genius on display on that very deeply moving occasion but "the Karabin Museum was closed" so I did the best that I could.
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