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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Apr 25, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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No doubt Dean. People seem to have gotten too relaxed about this whole belaying thing.
Even after they had to take a little class at the gym!
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jstan
climber
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
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I have always verified before leaning back. Has saved me about a half a death a year.
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julton
climber
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
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"I can't come up with a scenario that couldn't easily be avoided."
I wonder if we are reading kev's post differently? I was thinking of the case where the climber rappels from the anchor.
The two old guys I know were climbing a pitch that ended out of sight. It was near a waterfall and hearing was very difficult. Because of the line the leader decided that rappelling would be better and said that he would yell at the top when he was safe. He led the pitch and yelled and the belayer took him off belay.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
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My first climbing partner/mentor once asked me, while I was on lead, whether I'd been top roping lately. I said "yes" and he quickly paid out 10' of penalty slack. "Top roping sucks" was his retort. So top roping's a dangerous game in my book.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
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"It is the responsibility of the BELAYER to make sure that both are on the same page, and know what is going on!"
Small consolation if you hit the deck. "But it wasn't my fault"….waaah.
Sometimes being right about everything ain't all it's cracked up to be. What's that parable about the oak tree in the wind, and the reeds? The mighty oak stands strong, secure in it's righteousness, until it topples. The reeds, meanwhile, bend, adapt, and survive.
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
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Great discussion.
Kev- sometimes I will pop in a piece, go off belay if I'm safe, finish up constructing the anchor on my own. This way my partner can get their stuff ready, go to the bathroom, etc. Sure sometimes I don't do that.
Dean I totally agree. I think, wait I know that in these three cases all involved were thinking the same.
Warner yes I agree.
Rgold- Exactly!
The Hawk- shut up! :)
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BruceAnderson
Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
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This is often called the "guides belay", as often guiding a client will belay the guide on TR, even though as the guide you're essentially in freesolo mode when climbing.There is no drawback to this, you don't have to actually take any weight, just grab the other side until you're sure everything is smooth and controlled. It is that moment when you transfer onto the belayer to lower when things can go wrong, even (and perhaps especially) with experienced climbers or long time partners. We're all human and make errors and once it's happened it's too late to go back. Wes is spot on to share this simple idea. Has nothing to do with trusting your belaer or not.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
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I know of two very experienced climbers, hooked up to go to ORG....
One gets to TOP yells "off belay" belayer does what he is told... and walks off to pee...
Then Top climber yells... TAKE.... pissing climbers starts yelling "No No No".... races back and grabs the rope about the time top climber is releasing ........ YES the top climber did grab the DOWN end....
but think about the root cause of this.
Wes My little SAFTEY thing is to never go off belay when Im leading, sport.
When Rapping down.... I extend my PAS... but keep it clipped in and rap down a little, just to feel the pull on the harness... pull back up a bit then unclip for the ride down.
This has saved my ass... one time. and one time is all it will take to kill me.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:11pm PT
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this technique saved one of my best friends the first time we ever climbed together.
Watch out for pheromone distraction, sure got me that day. We both learned something else. "OK" is not suitable language for climbing communication. OK WHAT?
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Nevada City
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
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not usually, but with people I was new to climbing with in certain situations I have done it once or twice.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
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Outdoors: I'm with westhegimp, jstan. Trust but verify. Always hold on to the other side of the rope until I can feel (ideally, see!) that my belayer really is braced, ready, holding my weight on the correct rope (and that, yes, I'm tied in correctly, etc). Then, let go.
Too many possible variables, distractions, misunderstandings, miscommunications. I've seen it all: babies, dogs, nearby belayers yelling loud commands to other climbers with same name as me, rain, wind, nearby accident, all of the above..... and many more....
Indoors: No communication possible, but no variables. I just clip into the top anchor, let go. Seldom even look down or say a word.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
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Do not EVER allow someone who you do not trust explicitly lower you. If in doubt...rap!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
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Interesting analogy....getting lowered is the scariest thing I do in climbing because I am not the one in control. If I don't COMPLETELY trust the person lowering me I put control in my hands by rapping.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Apr 25, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
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rainy day in Ouray, Jim?
I think most posters here assume that you do trust the belayer to have a basic level of competence.
This thread seems more about the further question of whether you trust every competent belayer to always do exactly what you want/expect them to do, in the unpredictable and varying circumstances that can happen on a real crag.
If I actually questioned my belayer's basic competence, yeah, I'd rappel. Been a long time since I climbed with anyone that green.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Apr 25, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
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I do what is absolutely necessary according to time and circumstance to insure everyone's safety.
There's no one size fits all as there are so many variables in the the climbing environment.
Werner nails it.
My main issue with this is the possibility of this hand over handing happening while the belayer has already started to lower. If the belayer is faster than the leader batmanning the rope then you'll be building up slack that can lead to a drop should the leader lose grip on the rope. This all assumes you can't communicate with the belayer of course. If there's an issue with trust then the Petzl technique of orussicing the other end of the rope gives the measure of safety not found in the lowering.
What's wrong with just staying clipped to the anchor until the belayer takes in all the slack? Then you're backed up and can take the clip off the anchor once all the weight is being held by the belayer?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2014 - 02:27pm PT
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Snowy day in Yosemite West Crusher.You have me pegged.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 25, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
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interesting responses... and surprising in some respects.
The way I look at it, the team is a team, a belayer and a leader, working together. The topic here is the safety of the leader, so the leader has a lot to say about that.
I am attentive as a belayer, but having redundant methods helps stack the deck in our favor in terms of avoiding accidents. I am usually very communicative, talk through what we are going to do when the leader hits the anchors, and try to be explicit in that understanding.
Fact of the matter is that humans have performance failures all the time, and those failure can lead to accidents. So even if you've got it all worked out at the base, things could have changed, cognitively, emotionally, physically by the time the leader gets to the anchors. So even if you've communicated prior to the climb, things could be different at the end.
I also don't discourage any discussion of safety by any partner, no matter their level of experience. We are all up there and we should all have responsibility for what we're doing. If you don't understand something about the anchor setup, etc, it should be discussed, and in as open a manner as possible. I don't assume that my experience necessarily means that I won't make a mistake, or that I don't have anything left to learn.
Some partners grab the belayer end of the rope as I lower, I don't interpret it as lack of trust in me, personally, why would I? Some partners rap the lines. Every situation is different, as Werner observed and there is no single solution.
The goal is to increase the level of safety, and decrease the likelihood of an accident.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 25, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
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Honestly, I have never done this and would never consider doing it.
Never had a partner do it either.
The only scenario where I find myself grabbing the other end of the rope is after a fall, to batman up.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Apr 25, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
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"I can't come up with a scenario that couldn't easily be avoided."
I wonder if we are reading kev's post differently? I was thinking of the case where the climber rappels from the anchor.
Sure but if you're rapping then you never go back on belay so you've negated the OP's original issue.
I wasn't saying that I/one never goes off belay at an anchor and yes I can come up with non-standard situations...But if the OP's original intent is safety I think staying on betray is a far simpler/better solution - that's all.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Apr 25, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
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I am firmly in the "I will rappell camp". I trust very few belayers. I do not trust a casual acquaintance or new climber to lower me, no matter how clear the communications are. I've seen people dropped and watch a good friend be life-flighted to the hospital with a broken back. It just gives me piece of mind to rappell in most situations.
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