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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Apr 16, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
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jstan-
This is a more or less recent issue. I think it does come from the gym. I would never belay without tying into the bottom end of the rope.
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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Apr 17, 2014 - 11:58am PT
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Always a sad thing to read about these accidents. Very sorry for those left behind. This sport is very unforgiving of ignorance. Peace to those left behind..
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
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Hopefully the majority of my fellow climbers understand this already but for those who don't. Please be aware that the study of accidents is important and can enhance ones longevity. Approx 80% of all climbing accidents occur on rappel and the most hazardous period in a climbers career are the first 2 yrs. During this 2 yr. period I strongly suggest If and when it is possible to hook up with an older much more experienced climber. Do so. Especially big walling or at least utilize this colossal tool called the web. Study the various climbing videos...they are an amazing resource..and lastly always keep an eye open for the better way as long as U pursue this craft..stay awake
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Apr 17, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
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Very sorry to hear of young lives cut tragically short. Particularly when these incidents are so preventable.
There have been more than a few incidents of poorly placed trad gear. Fortunately most do not result in serious consequences. I know jstan began started a thread about this subject, but my anecdotally based view is that there are a lot of climbers coming out of the gym and sport climbing that can climb relatively hard, but lack many of the most basic understandings of rope management, protection and anchors.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
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Who has ever heard of a three piece anchor pulling just from body weight?
Those must have been A6 placements.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 17, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
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Those must have been A6 placements.
Kinda says it all about the cause.
Comfort to those who lost a friend or loved one.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 17, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
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Not
1. Putting a knot in the leader's end so the belay is retained
2. Pulling the rope through
3. Walking off the backside
must look really cool. Is it the crowd climbing that makes this necessary? Or does it come simply from the gyms?
As Elcap explained, it's perfectly reasonable not to pull the entire rope through, and there is nothing inherently dangerous about that practice (whenever I've done it, the leader stays tied in, so the belay system is closed. Of course, the system should always be closed if there's any doubt whatsoever about the rope being sufficiently long.)
In any event, not pulling all the rope through has nothing whatsoever to do with gym climbing. I suppose someone could do it in the gym, but I've never seen it (gym climbing is generally done with gym ropes, which are much shorter than standard ropes, and also there's no rope drag, which is another reason to tie in short outside on some routes).
Why am I going into this in such detail? Other than I'm that type of guy, it's at least slightly interesting to me that some of you seem to be incriminating gyms for at least some things that aren't really dangerous, and have nothing to do with gyms.
May as well blame these accidents on "marihuana" or people-who-don't-look-like-us or whatever.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 17, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
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it's at least slightly interesting to me that some of you seem to be incriminating gyms for at least some things that aren't really dangerous, and have nothing to do with gyms.
In a gym, the situation is controlled. The climber ties in, the belayer clips the rope through the belay device and locks the biner, good to go.
Outside, uncontrolled environment with variables and unknown circumstances. Both climber and belayer tie in. Not always, but as a general practice.
Practicing both tying in at the gym as well, might save lives and reduce injuries. Or at least a knot in the belay end of the rope.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Apr 17, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
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convenience anchors
What the hell is a "convenience anchor"? People have been climbing for decades. Now all of the sudden we need to protect people from their own stupidity?
I feel for the family and friends of those injured/killed, but to grid bolt every crag and top out because gym climbers can't figure out rope management/trad anchors is taking it too far.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 17, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
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May as well blame these accidents on "marihuana" or people-who-don't-look-like-us or whatever.
None of my business, but are you a funny looking pot-head?
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
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When I started climbing in Josh 40 years ago, our mantra was...."If there's a way to walk off....do it."
Definitely.
It's been discussed before that my generation of climbers came mostly from mountaineering, exploring, adventurous, outdoor types. We were already dealing with the outdoors and even ropes & knots before we started rock climbing. Now most come from gyms. City people looking for gymnastic fun, which is great and all.
But, the question I have, because it seems that way to me, is that a far lesser percentage of people climbing today know what they're doing? My perspective from memory is that most guys knew what they were doing in the 70s and 80s. Now I'm seeing where most guys actually do not know what they're doing. Like it went from 80% knew and 20% didn't to 80% don't and 20% do. That's exaggerating, but that's what it seems like. The guys I know from the gym that are also now going to Joshua Tree are still renting shoes and own no gear. How much can they know? Any truth to the idea that less of a percentage of climbers know what they're doing now as compared to climbers from the 70's and 80's?
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jstan
climber
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Apr 17, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
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"If there's a way to walk off....do it."
In the 60's and early 70's I found walking off to be beneficial in at least three ways.
1. Lowering or rappelling involves non-redundant systems that pose special risk.
2. Walking off uses different muscles which is quite enjoyable and you learn some route finding, at your own pace.
3. Walking off releases the route sooner for others.
In the sixties the phenomenon of crowd climbing socialization began to evolve into an important component in climbing. That component happens to be an even larger part of gym climbing, if I am to believe many of the comments made by climbers. While apriori it is not a bad thing, it did have a couple of consequences.
1. A practice of dominating routes for a period of time developed
2. There was increased damage to vegetation at the bases of climbs
3. A person's ability to focus on what had to be done to assure safety was weakened
Under the assumption this is all true, we have the task of adapting. Unfortunately it is the first two that admit most readily to resolution through changing our practices and hardening the area at the bases of climbs.
The last, which may in fact have very serious consequences, seems harder to resolve. Letting the climber be entirely free from interference while on the rock won't even do it. Engaging the climber while they are tying their knot for instance or while buckling their harness is not helpful. Indeed while this is being done there really should be a general silence.
We have a lot to do. And we need to face the possibility awful prices are being paid.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 17, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
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When I started climbing in Josh 40 years ago, our mantra was...."If there's a way to walk off....do it."
Forty year later......still living that same code.
Many accidents occur during descents, including "walk offs."
Not saying the "walk off" ethic is bad, but it's arbitrary, and certainly not the safest way to descend from tricky terrain for competent climbers (which would be to rap or lower from robust anchors--you can call them "convenience" or whatever you want, but pejorative terms don't change the facts).
As a sometimes visitor to JT, seems to me that the developers of your era screwed the place up in a lot of ways with crap bolt jobs and poor anchors. In that way, climbing is a bit of a surrogate for the rest of the world.
Hopefully the new generation(s) can learn from your mistakes and do a little better.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 17, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
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The "walk off" mantra is all well and good...except there ain't no walkoff of the Headstone, which is where one of these two accidents happened. You are lowering/rapping, or downsoloing 5.6/5.7 as the easiest ways off the formation.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
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I really suck at walk offs. I might be getting a little better but when I started they were some of the most frightening things about climbing for me.
I do realize that screwing up a rappel is far more common and that it had nothing to do with these accidents.
Erik
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 17, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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"As a sometimes visitor to JT, seems to me that the developers of your era screwed the place up in a lot of ways with crap bolt jobs and poor anchors."
Double Huh?
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
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Further...
I think people need to know what they're doing when lives are involved, as with climbing. And, I keep saying people need to read about the history of climbing.
I say this because of the people who think adding more bolts to routes, be it for anchors or otherwise do not realize how controversial fixed hardware on our national treasures is/are.
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overwatch
climber
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Apr 17, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
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No sh#t where did that come from? Friggin left field
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 17, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
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"As a sometimes visitor to JT, seems to me that the developers of your era screwed the place up in a lot of ways with crap bolt jobs and poor anchors."
Double Huh?
What part of "crap bolt jobs" and "poor anchors" don't you understand?
I recall you're the guy who had a very hard time understanding the added / removed bolt on Surprise--why you don't try to figure that one out before scratching your head too much on this one.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 17, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
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Wanna give some specific examples of crap anchors & bolts you are referring to, blahblah?
And the 'developers of our era'...exactly who are you talking about?
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