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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 11, 2006 - 04:46pm PT
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Nice, Jerry.
But don't forget your mask.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Aug 11, 2006 - 04:49pm PT
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note to self: heading is considered "fine art"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 11, 2006 - 04:50pm PT
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More monkeys flying out of the ubh.
Actually Dorn used some heads, but I shortly came to agree with those who saw their pitfalls, even refered to them as malleable pitons.
They ARE hammered gear in any case.
So glad to know that you are looking out for what kind of climbing others are supposed to do. lol
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 11, 2006 - 04:55pm PT
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Hahhaha funny Jerry "(fastening my bullet proof vest and ducking now.)"
Yes, ethics is the basic principle of purification. Unless one knows what is moral and what is immoral.
Of course, in this material world everything is immoral.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 04:56pm PT
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Thanks John for adding a rational new begining out of the emotional chaos on those 'other threads'.
I liked your description of Walts ethical stance. However, I think that there is lots of grey, and infinite shades of grey, black and brown depending on where you swing your hammer. I liked that one photo of the little hook on the flawless white rock, laughing at my memories of some hooking on black and brown dried mud on the other side.
My second aid wall was our first try on Zenyatta Mondatta. (the first 6 pitches had been done years before). Bridwell showed me how to place a copperhead at the base then sent me up there on the first pitch, days later I got the first new lead, the lightening bolt roof. I was 2/3s up the first black corner when I ripped about 40 ft. (first and last fall on new ground) I had been trying to copperhead and nut through some hideous loose chunks stuck in the corner. When eye to eye with Jim, dangling there after the fall, he admonished me, "Don't go pussyfooting around up there, beat that sh#t with your hammer! swing it hard!" 2nd go, I pound the loose stone like Thor, sending a black barrage of detached diorite to the talus, behind the choss is some interesting terrain, cam placement, good copperhead, then a really strenuous roof. One tier in the roof has a shelf crying out for a hook. Can't get a freehang twisting hook to quite stay on the gentle slope, I whack the hammer a few times, now there is a powdery little spot and my hook stays, next move is the most strenous machine head rivet I have ever placed, over the lip on the crystal flawless black wall. Did I agonize over the hammer taps that made a rare mid roof hook move possible?,
f*ck no! It was cool, and people still like that pitch.
I watched Java punch holes in the outside of strudel like layers of brown junk on the crux pitch of what a later party finished into Wyoming Sheep Ranch. He hooked on the 3" holes his hammer punched through when he was trying to drill a rivet.
Sometimes the chisel would be good to scrape away the grey soft stuff and lichen in the corner so you could get your copper to stick. Sometimes the drill, aimed straight down, made a sloper hook work on an obvious big feature that would have felt wierd to dowel around. The limits are subjective, I too have declined to do a chop job on a flawless gold corner on the headwall of Aurora, the most obvious feature on the upper half of that whole headwall was what we were aiming for, and chose to hook and drill right to join the Trip. If you are good, you know when artistry turns to a travesty and you take the other path.
Its all grey and it all comes down to taste and results. And the ethical consideration of those who will follow was always paramount in our minds. We did not beat our chests about how hard that stuff was, though we found it so, but how cool the climbing was, with killer aid moves on beautiful, swirly, consistantly overhanging stone. Though we made a couple of pitches slightly long for 1981, we set out to craft a classic that others would enjoy for years, and by all measures with ZM and Aurora we pulled that off. I have never had anyone come up to me and state that so and so section was a chisel job or a pegboard, and yet we clearly did not have any black and white limitations on what we did with our hammers. You were supposed to make the best possible move in every instance, be bold, and not waste time.
Maybe the later 80's saw JM, Walt, et al. responding with a purer stance in reaction to our more pragmatic style of reporting. Certainly standards should advance and all, but I think all the best nailers, did it more or less the same, after a few ascents every route seems A3+ or as I prefer, Not Too Bad, anyway. Even though I was a teenager then, like Bridwell in mid-life, I was dealing with starting a family etc. We did not take it all so seriously as you new turks, but we had a great time aid climbing!
Perhaps this is the right moment for a classic Birdism, in the middle of the Kauk/Chapman/Bacher rap bolt wars, Jim said "On your dying day, do you think it will matter what you did on this rock or that?, no, all that really matters is how many people you helped along the way."
Peter
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:02pm PT
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Where on "Dorn" did you Head???? And don't even try to call #5 Chouinard Mashies, Heads!
And damn it, the Chiseling and Cleaning of a placement is required for a clean and secure Head placement. And if that isn't thinking about future ascentist, I don't know what is.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:05pm PT
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Peter, I'm in awe! Seriously. Great job on ZM too.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:11pm PT
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JD-
i'd suggest that there may be some sort of sliding scale that takes into account not only the accepted local ethic and the # of drilled holes over a given distance, but also the # of climbers that pass over time. my $.02, barely worth that since i may never drill a bolt!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:11pm PT
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Peter, sounds like your manufactured hook ledge was a reasonable compromise. Less impact than drilling, and subsequent ascents don't need to hammer there.
Pee, maybe, but not hammer.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:15pm PT
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Pee, maybe, but never, EVER poop! Ok, we clear on that? :-)
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:23pm PT
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All the nostalgia about nailing aside, I am totally psyched on the hammerless thing. My son Braden and I did Zodiac and ZM together, he wanted to learn to nail, but he ended up pushing me on cam hook skills. Some of our best moves were free climbing, stemming then lunging for the fixed head wire with a biner in hand. As expected the hardest aid was in the longest most straightforward features, the big grey corner up top was my crux. Braden has also done Mescalito still without swinging a hammer once, though his partner was not so strict.
What will the future hold? Maybe replace all rivets/dowels/lead bolts with removeable suction pieces, bring back the sportiness! erase the in situ junk.
Will climbing as recreation still be ethical in 2020?
Peter
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:26pm PT
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Nice to hear somebody wondering along with me, Peter.
Props to Braden. Say hi.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:30pm PT
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Cool posts Peter. Any chance that you can talk Jim into posting up?
Best, Roger
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
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Hi Peter-
Of course your routes were awesome, stellar lines, back in the day when the stellar lines were still unclimbed! I still believe (despite the dozens of routes that have been put up since) that you guys got the last of the great routes on El Cap in the late 70's and early 80's.
I do remember a mutual agreement at some point among a group of us, you know the crowd, discussed over 20+ cups of coffee in the cafe, that drilling shallow bat hook holes on the back sides of sloper edges was a FA technique we no longer considered valid. Perhaps we had all gotten too scared on holes that had been damaged by subsequent ascents, resulting in skating hooks which necessitated re-drilling on subsequent ascents.
By that time, we had all agreed that bathooks (a well established technique of an earlier generation) were bogus, and that any drilled hole in general should be filled with a 5/16" diameter, 3/4" long machine bolt (coarse thread). I think eschewing the sloper angled drilled hook hole must have been an offshoot of bathook argument, though we all had pointy Chouinards in our arsenals specifically ground for that purpose.
In the end, it was really all about getting up the stone as efficiently as possible, just as you have stated so well. All our nuance about "style" and "ethics" was our personal response to the stone in an effort to raise the art form to a slightly higher level. All the groundwork had already been done, thanks to earlier efforts on the big stones, like yours.
Thanks for that.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:45pm PT
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I think Jim is a bit busy now.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
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Ron O.
Are you goin to OR? I am passing this time and so will miss my bi-annual chillin with Jim.
regards,
Peter
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 11, 2006 - 07:40pm PT
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I'll say hi for you.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 11, 2006 - 09:50pm PT
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this thread has been a great read boys.
not a bunch of haggling and run on either.
how refreshing.
each man's contribution has had a nice ring.
(hey, let's not feed pete's (maysho's) ego too much here),
nevertheless, gee maysho, nice werds, really.
thanks too deuce, ronbo, madb, matt, vawter, ultrab, healyje, roger, atcha, jerry, tig, golsen, werner et al, all these distinctions and nuances, wow,
if only more than the 20/30 people who are logging in could appreciate it...
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 11, 2006 - 10:57pm PT
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Now, for some "I am just another dude" opinion.
The real practice of ethics on any route, even more so on a challenging and stout Big Wall route, belongs to the second and beyond ascentists. It is their responbility to adhere to the path and practices that the FAer's established, regardless of their abilities, religious and personal beliefs. It is they that must restrain from any manipulations or deviations of any sorts. They can not nor must not impose their philosophy onto someone elses work, never! My stubborn integrity has kept me time and time from "Chopping" BS bolt and rivet ladders etc. I wish I wasn't such a nice guy sometimes, but I couldn't sleep at night if I did something of that sorts.
Bottom line, as has been said time and time again, "If your shakey at the grade, stay off the route dude!".
PS...Piton Ron, you still driving the around "Park" in that silver Mercedes, with all them totally illegal automatic weapons in your trunk, with that shaved head looking and acting like "Kojak"? I heard that you had a couple of diamonds implanted in your two upper front teeth. Is that true?
Ultrabutthole, come on, your damn lizard can do better than that!
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john hansen
climber
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Aug 11, 2006 - 11:01pm PT
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JUst curious... How have hardings old bathook holes held up? are they still viable or have they been replaced with rivet etc.
Also isn't a drill just a specialized chisel?
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