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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Who's asking, Johnny Cash?
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Historical references to Crimea have been Russian do not make much sense - the whole Ukraine has been Russian for longer than that. Crimea in fact was probably the last part of modern Ukraine to become Russian - with exception of possibly some Romanian land annexed by Stalin.
Ukraine historically never had a statehood with exception of a short period in 1600-s when it quickly joined Russia under the threat of Polish invasion.
And that old Ukraine has very week references to the current Ukraine. It had about 10% of the current territory.
That applies to many post-Soviet states. The "state" borders in Soviet Union were never treated seriously - resulting in many problems and conflicts now.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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what a mess.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Its obvious Coz that that is the case. And if it starts World War III, well..
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jstan
climber
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Dealing with Putey Poot should not be a big deal. Right?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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One of my colleagues is Ukranian, and has filled me in on his perspective on this whole thing.
Ukraine is a modernistic 2nd world country that was very glad to break from the USSR, which was designed to keep all the satellite countries as vassals to Russia.....and which tended to keep their citizens much closer to 3rd-world status.
Since the break, Ukraine has aspired to becoming a true 1st world country, modernizing in every way possible.
Clearly, closer ties to Russia is a lunge backwards, and the people want to move toward the consumerism, liberty, and communication of a modern democracy.
What they really fear is that what has happened was their "prague spring", and is about to be followed by a takeover. This was feared by the average Ukrainian when their president decided to steer the country away from the EU, and back towards Russia....and thus, the coup.
The Prague Spring was a period of political liberalization in Czechoslovakia during the era of its domination by the Soviet Union after World War II. It began on 5 January 1968, when reformist Alexander Dubček was elected First Secretary of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, and continued until 21 August when the Soviet Union and all members of the Warsaw Pact invaded the country to halt the reforms.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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During the Soviet times the standards of living in Ukraine and Belorussia were actually higher that in most of Russia. Even higher they were in Baltic states. Moscow itself had higher living standards back than.
The newborn Ukraine state had fallen under the curse of nationalism, trying to build bonds based on a legend of Russian suppression. Not a very bright idea in the state with about 50% ethnic Russian population and very many mixed families. The great example - the prominent Ukrainian politician who herself heavily played nationalistic card - former primer minister Ulia Timoshenko - is half Russian and half Armenian ))
In that new coup the radical nationalists as the most active group played heavy role. And it shows in the acts of the new government. The very first motion of new rehashed parliament was to denounce the law that allowed regional languages been used along with the primarily state language. Not the very smart move when you trying to build unity. That explains the quick reaction of Crimea who actually tried to become independent back in 1990-s.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Would I be far amiss to say that Ukrainians and Russians are comparable to
Yankees and Southerners?* The Yankees felt compelled to invade the South
and straighten out that mess so we should just STFU and let them sort it out.
*And as a Russian Studies major I am well aware that Ukrainian and Russian
are practically no different than Southern English and Yankee English. ;-)
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WBraun
climber
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So ....?
After the Putinator and the Obminator duke it out in WW3 and kill everyone
on the planet will the price of my quart of oil go back to 59 cents @ quart???
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Coz
LOL this ain't about oil.. mebbe wheat? Nah this is just about who's the biggest as#@&%e on the block.
Pointless geopolitical crap.
Longterm Putin isn't doing himself many favors, but I doubt he cares.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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I honestly have no idea about how Yankees and Southerners felt about each other. Life was very different back then.
The difference between Ukrainian and Russian languages is much greater than between say British and American English dialects. Ukrainian and Russian are close but different languages. One cannot claim knowing Ukrainian if he only speaks Russian. But the thing is that about 100% of Ukrainians speak Russian very well. Back in Soviet times Ukrainian was the language of the country side and the cities people generally spoke Russian, with the exception of the western regions where both Ukrainian and Polish were more prominent. Ukrainian language was somewhat an endangered species back then. There were artificial efforts to keep it alive - like the national theaters and such, but not very successful.
That is why in the new state forcing the Ukrainian language on people often felt as an insult, especially in Russian regions. Playing national card in modern world is usually a dumb idea, and especially so in the multinational country. If Ukraine would instantly become reach it all would not matter much, but that is obviously not the case.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Werner posited: So ....?
After the Putinator and the Obminator duke it out in WW3 and kill everyone
on the planet will the price of my quart of oil go back to 59 cents @ quart???
Probably since the world economy will be thrown back 50 years. The 9/11 recession dropped a gallon of gas back to 0.89/gallon in Arizona for a while.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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With all the dollars printed in that 50 years.. My guess we all will have to learn how to ride horses again.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Why? Imagine life 50 years back.
I think I will be able to put together a pair of jeans, spending may be a full day on it. $20 retail? No way!
And how much will be a gallon of gas, on that market?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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i'm waiting for the president of the USA to take action!?!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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There's a lot of history there, Coz. It goes well beyond oil. I'm not an expert on the subject but there is no small part of it that appears to be an issue of Russian pride and Putin not wanting to lose more perceived political territory to the west. The scholars I've been listening to talk about the perception that Russians had before the fall of the Soviet Union that they would be partners with the United States in shaping the world. They went through with the dissolution of their empire and went on to be relatively ignored on the world stage. Putin wants his old empire back and is more than happy to thwart US efforts wherever he can if it keeps countries within his sphere of influence.
pyro posted i'm waiting for the president of the USA to take action!?!
What does "action" mean? Nuclear strikes?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Coz, there's no oil in the Ukraine. Russia has the oil. Ukraine has to
come to Moscow every few years with its hat in its hand to beg for a decent
deal on gas so its citizens can make it through the winter without freezing.
Russia would rather sell its gas to the rich Europeans at a better price
but it feels honour-bound to help out its poor cousins. This is about
sovereignty, Russian power and, perhaps most importantly, holding onto the
Crimea and the Black Sea Fleet base.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Controlling Crimea or eastern Ukraine isn't going to help much with those pipelines. Infact my guess is it would hurt him as Ukraine could kick him in the gonads if they chose. Putin won't get all of Ukraine. I suspect the best he can do is Crimea since they have arguable the only legitimate government in the area and could choose to join Russia in a free election.
Hmm Putin may actually have screwed up.
If I were Ukrain I'd immediately move my military to a few pump stations. Use the Russian invasion as a good reason to seize them and nullify any agreements with Russia.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Coz insisted Nope, oil and gas pipelines are the one and only issue, Western Media is confusing you.
Pardon me, Scott. I completely overlooked your decades of experience in the film industry and defer to your wikipedia informed expertise on this issue.
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