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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Lois, I think you are putting too much emphasis on this mentoring aspect. While some were older and some were better, basically it was a community of near equals. Bridwell was a 'dirt bagger' aka 'climbing bum' much of that time although he probably worked in the winters some. He may also have derived some income from guiding others not from our crowd or even got some small sponsorship deals. Others would know the particulars better than I. Basically he got a reputation because he was bad ass! He was an exceptionally strong climber in many aspects of climbing and was willing to put his ass on the line in all the ways that climbing can be dangerous for many years. Oh, and he happens to be somewhat charasmatic.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Hmmmm, now that I think about it, most climbers seem to be somewhat charasmatic. Why is that?
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Most are climbing bums for a few years in their late teens and into their twenties and then reality and job and family become more important. While Bridwell did have a wife (I'm pretty sure) he spent many years as a climbing bum and still does for the most part, although he must be getting near to social security time.
As to aid, for us climbing is not really about getting to the top of anything. Mountaineers have that sickness but us rock climbers are mostly just in it for the challenge. Life is seriously bereft of challenges for a lot of people. If you aren't into seeing how much money you can make and how fast you can make it, or how much power you can accrue, then a job is work and they need to pay you in order to get you to do it. It doesn't take long until you are pretty good at it and it becomes boring. Climbing is the juxtoposition to work for most of us. It is where we challenge ourselves. It is where we take our risks and seek our real rewards, while at the same time letting us 'be' in a more natural world. That is also part of it for a lot of us. So, the challenge is to our skill, perception, intelligence, and physical abilities. We don't want someone to help us. That is just the opposite of everything we are climbing for. We are here to be self sufficient in a way that never happens in normal life. So to break the rules (which is what cheating amounts to) is a failure to meet the challenge. Failure is not the objective. Overcoming all odds all by yourself is the objective. It is a selfish sport!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Bachar = Hang Dog
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Slakkey
Trad climber
From a Quiet Place by the Lake
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LEB,
You need to get off the farm and check out some real climbing. You need to touch the rock and get a feel for what you are posting about. You just need to do it. I am sorry if this pisses everyone of on this site but, for someone who claimes that they are intelligent. I have real issues that you post some very dumb questions. This is coming from someone for who my late wife had a PhD in Molecular Biology. I myself have a masters in Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering. My wife and I did not suffer fools lightly. She was not a Climber but, had a genuine understanding of many aspects of the sport. LEB think about for one minute what you are posting.
Like I said I am sorry if people find this offensive but, I have just had it with her long winded rants. LEB, you want to learn about Climbing then just get out and do it. This could be my last post for awhile. That may not mean to many but, I have more important things to attend to.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Ouch! please a picture of a bachar hang dog!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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LEB: it was a joke. A good one too because it so wrong. Bachar is no hangdog, and as far as I know has tried it like once, 20 years ago, at Smith Rock, Oregon, land of hangdogs.
Hangdogging is simply while trying to climb something, you fall, but stay in the same area of the climb, hanging on the rope, and start again from that point after resting without lowering all the way to the ground, or in some cases, to the last no hands rest. Bachar was/is one of the purest and best climbers EVER, and is certainly no hangdog by any stretch of the imagination.
Locker style edit: as for the 25 years of BS.... too long of a story. Nobody died or was injured physically. There is some mental damage however. (just a joke WoS guy/s!) Read all 600+ posts and get back to me as needed. Word to the wise: don't even think of poking your neb in there with any LEB type trolls. Them boys play rough.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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LEB: this may help a bit for some other terms. Googled from rec.climbing in 1995:
From: Ilana Stern - view profile
Date: Mon, May 15 1995 12:00 am
In article , jpver...@syr.edu
(Jim Vermeulen) writes:
> This raises a good point. Is there a recent publication/article that
> delineates all the lingo? Might be useful for out-of-the-loop sport climbers
> and aging trad climbers(like myself)
This is aperiodically posted to rec.climbing, and it's in the archive
as well:
"Modes of Ascent"
--
Russ Walling and I put our heads together and came up with the
following thoughts on the various modes of ascent:
Definition of Terms:
Onsight Free Solo:
=
Angus McGillicuddy has never been to Mt. Hogwash. Walking along
the base, Angus spots a line of bolts up an overhanging schist
intrusion. He fancies the look of the route, laces up his boots, blows
his nose, chalks up and gapes at several girls from the Swedish Sport
Climbing Team, who are limbering up and changing into bright-colored
lycra tights. Psyched, Angus winks, spits into his palms, then solos
up the schist intrusion.
Free Solo:
=
Angus has been to Mt. Roughage several times. On two occasions,
he's climbed the "Watercloset", a difficult route that follows a basalt
intrusion via chancy dynamics. Angus has it in his mind to solo the
"Watercloset". Now at the base, he laces up, touches his toes, exhales
hard, then solos the route.
Worked Solo:
=
Angus has been coming to Mt. Peatmoss for 11 years. He's lead
"Compost" 50 times, toproped it 70 times, and also on a toprope, has
worked the crux bit over and over till he knows it better that the hair
on his palms. Now he plans to solo "Compost", an intricate razor job
up a monzonite intrusion. At the base, he flexes his guns, flexes his
back, flexes his loins, jumps onto "Compost" and solos it in six
minutes.
Onsight Flash or a Vue:
=
Angus has never been to Mt. Basura. One route, "The Offal", takes a
loose line up a steep albeit trashy intrusion. Angus racks up and
leads "The Offal" straight off, placing all the gear. He takes no
falls, nor a single rest on the line.
Beta Flash:
=
This is Angus' first trip to Mt. Gizmo. At the local pub, Angus runs
into Jack Nastyface, the local hardman. since Angus is buying, Jack
describes down to the last pinky lock the sequence for climbing "The
Honest Indonesian", an improbable Mt. Gizmo test piece following a
sketchy dun intrusion. With the sequence memorized, Angus flashes the
route the next afternoon.
Deja Vu:
=
It's been some years since Angus was last at Mt. Tallywacker. He
remembers trying the "Chamfered Luby" and failing miserably. The
successive lunges along the scarlet intrusion notwithstanding, he
remembers little about the route. But, Angus is a better climber that
he was 7 years ago and the next morning, he manhandles the "Chamfered
Luby" on his "first" try.
Red Point:
=
Angus has tried to climb "The Widget" on Mt. Sputnik for 5 years now.
He's aided it, toproped it, and studied it from a helicopter, (on
jumars with opera glasses of course). Finally he leads it, no falls,
placing the gear as he goes.
Pink Point:
=
Angus has been trying to climb "The Bullwhip" on Mt. Mapelthorp for 10
years. He's gotten close, and after hosing the windgate intrusion with
Gumout, squeegeeing it clean, then buffing each hold with 600-grit
sand paper, he wants to try the lead once again. But first builds a
model of the route on his home climbing wall preworks all sequences
to a "T", then finally on the day of reckoning... he raps down the
route, places all the gear, then flashes the lead.
Brown Point:
=
Angus has never tried "Intelligent Gas from Uranus" on Mt. Bachar. He
starts up the blank face between the two brown intrusions full of
intentions to make a flash ascent. Things go awry in a hurry, and Angus
is soon hanging from the cord. He's quickly on a toprope, pulling
through the first two grim bits. Later, stumped at the crux, he
incorporates a side rope, one etrier and a 'come-along' belay. This
makes Angus feel like he's got the strength of 10 men as he works out
the crux. Within hours, he stands on the summit ready to rap down and
place the gear for a 'pink point' ascent the next day.
There are however other procedures that Angus sometimes employs in
his quest for the summit that are worth mentioning. For instance, he's
been known to 'hangdog'. That is, after he falls off his lead
attempt, he won't hesitate to hang on the rope, rest, then carry on,
fully refreshed.
When Angus first went to Mt. Pipedream, he didn't have time for
too many shenanigans, but he did want to bag "The Tijuana Virgin", a
nearly non-existent line of pockets along as ivory intrusion. To save
time, he rapped down to the crux, worked it out on toprope, then rapped
down to the deck and 'red pointed' the route. thus, Angus had 'speed
dogged' the route (also known as 'greyhounding').
At Mt. cameltoe, Angus desperately wanted to scale "The Man in the
Boat", but first wanted the beta. He sent his hapless buddy Shawn
O'Sean up to work out the moves while he watched smugly from below.
Shawn was 'seeing-eye doggin' for Angus, who was then set to try his
Beta Flash.
Also, at Mt. Cameltoe, Angus took a liking to "The Pipefitter". He
did not, however, like the looks of the first bolt, which was 30 feet
off the talus slope from hell below. Angus needed a 'coon dog' to go
up and fetch him that first clip. Shawn had already mounted "The
Pipefitter" 69 times before, and gladly 'coon dogged' for Angus. He
clipped the first bolt, lowered, then handed off the blunted sharp end
for Rover to take over in relative safety.
Angus encountered a similar situation at Mt. Hamstring. "The Rocky
Mountain Oyster", followed an overhanging intrusion and the first bolt,
way the hell up there, already had a quickdraw on it. Nobody's fool,
Angus took a long bight of rope, twirled it overhead like a lariat and
hurled it at the in situ quickdraw. the bight of rope hit the dogleg
biner at the gate and with a click!, Angus was clipped in! He named
this method the 'rodeo clip'.
Angus certainly is not one, but he's known a few "dog's asses".
These craven swine cannot accept defeat and alter an existing route to
make it easier for them to scale, placing additional bolts, chiseling
holds, etc: Starvation, thirst and financial ruin to them all!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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These nutshell versions allways seem to get me in trouble:
Nutshell:
Yosemite Valley is filled with climbers. Some live there full time. Some visit. There is a hierarchy in place. The ones that live there full time are the top of the food chain.
El Cap is the God they and all visiting climbers worship. Dues must be paid, by putting in time and suffering on El Cap. Visitors are expected to bow down before El Cap and the Valley locals. Just the way it is. Think Surfing, my beach, my wave.
Newcomers to the Valley show up. They intend to climb El Cap via a new route. This in itself is audacious. No dues have been paid. They have also chosen what is believed to be a blank slab devoid of cracks. Valley locals think this is going to be a problem as blank walls need bolts and lots of them. Lots of bolts are frowned upon. The newcomers start the wall and are planning on being up there for about a month. This is viewed as too long and bad style. Light and fast is the ideal for most. They have 1200lbs of gear. Most parties have 100 or so.
Some locals decide to take matters into their own hands and remove these upstarts from the wall before they can damage the God known as El Cap. Somehow the locals get to the top of the newcomers ropes some 300ft up the wall and remove all the bolts they have placed and deposit all the newcomers gear at the base of the cliff and then take a shiit on top of the pile. Newcomers might have been out of town when this happened? Not sure... anyway....
Newcomers come back to find the pile of shiit and their route chopped. They will not be denied and start up again and then stay up there for some 39 days or so. Rumor is they drilled 1000's of bolts and left a giant trail of feces down the rock from their daily functions and tons of trash at the base. There were other accusations which I forget, mostly along the lines of damaging the rock or something. Valley spin doctors whip the story into a giant tempest that permeates all climbing media. Newcomers are now pariahs, and write a book on their exploits, yet no climbing magazine will touch them. All the editors were Valley locals.
Newcomers now need to prove that they are not just some goofballs and go and do one of the hardest routes on El Cap by normal means. Valley regulars monitor every step of the Newcomers... then they go to the Desert and blow the lid off another supposed super hard route and do it in good style. But, these guys are the Newcomers who ruined El Cap, so a malodorous smell follows them around and the style of the Desert route is called into action. Did they do it or did they debauch it like El Cap? They say no, others say yes. Proof on any of this is purely sujective.
Fuk... this nut shell is getting long... and there are many tangents I could go on to....
Fast forward 25 years... here on supertopo a witch hunt and air clearing starts. Most of the Valley locals involved are either dead, can't type, or are long forgotten. The Newcomers are fired up it seems for the entire 25 years. For the rest of us, it seemed to last a few weeks. In the fury, a few Supertopians decide to go and check this deflowered and ruined section of rock that the Newcomers destroyed. The supertopians decide to climb the thing. All is set to make the Newcomers look like the fools they are... except for the Supertopians can't really get off the ground on the route!!!! hahahaha-fukin-ha! It seems the route is in fact not a bolt ladder, has never been repeated by any other party, and just gave a swift kick in the pants to some "real" climbers.
So, the stink is the Newcomers have been dissed for 25 years, then in a Lazarus style whirlwind they discovered the internet, and started to try and clear their name.
That is where we are right now.
That should at least get you going.
I'll post this over on the other thread too, since I don't want to be accused of sneaking around posting lies and such. Maybe you will get some cross court action.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Shiit LEB! You of all people doing research while I type my ass off! Unreal!!
Anyway, there is some sort of synopsis.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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You are looking for more formal answers and definitions than any that exist. this was not set up it grew.
It is evolution, not intelligent design.
1) yes-kinda
2) No
3) NA
4) already answered, see the Ed & Roger show
5)various intertwined subgenera, wallrats are those doing a bunch of walls at the given time, though some do that exlusivly (ie pppete seems to be exclusively in this lifestyle at these current time space coordinates) lots of us knock around alot. See Games Climbers Play (article) by Lito Tejada Flores
6) Yes!/No! thank gawd, hands off!
7)Too many reasons to cite. having to yank own teeth out of head after getting clobbered by alp rock in order to more fully enjoy partying with Italian climbers is only iindicative. see also significant wall and free ascents, 1965(?) to a few years ago plus important climber rearing to start to scratch the surface.
"There will be no Mutiny here, any one who trys will walk the plank." (sic)
9)"There are no Rules," Some guy refered to, sometimes, as Nimbo.
10) Salathe? (ghost of?)
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WBraun
climber
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Damit Russ, LOL
That Angus "Definition of Terms" is some of the funniest sh#t I've ever read here.
A masterpeice ...........
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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I need to crack this off quick, as some people on this very forum are wondering why I am wasting time at the keyboard instead of making "wall rat" gear for them (which is what I should be doing right now!!)
So is this correct - "some" bolts are a necessary evil but lots of them are frowned upon?" Also are people "allowed" to put in bolts ahead of time to make it easier to climb later? How can that be?
The person who does the first ascent is allowed (in most cases) to place what bolts he/she feels is needed to do the route. Once those initial bolts are in place, the amount of bolts is "set in stone" and must not be altered. Nobody can add bolts to that route, and nobody can chop bolts from that route. There are exceptions, but rare. Too few bolts can be a problem, and too many can be a problem. Very hot subject.
Also isn't this getting at the heart of the "climbers" vs "wall rats" thing. Climbers go light and quick vs wall rats who "hang around" With 1200 lbs of gear I guess one can "hang around" quite some time. I don't know that I take that much gear in the motorhome. Were these people (the newcomers) of the 'wall rat' genre and is that contributing to the problem.
Climbers, for lack of a better word, are usually doing things that may last one day, or as short as a few minutes.... Wall Rats are more interested in climbing formations that take lots more time and employ different techniques and tactics. Wall Rats are Climbers, just as Climbers can be Wall Rats. The Newcomers were a wild card, but since they had not been on El Cap, they were for sure not Wall Rats and held in suspicion was the general thought.
Could you or anyone please comment more on this whole "bolt" issue. What IS allowed. I am distressed at the whole image of El Cap (or "God" as you call it) getting defaced and I am not even a climber. I love this monolith too. This is what I posted about in my first question. I am uncomfortable with anyone "hurting" El Cap too. What is the "ethics" about this whole thing?
See above, but don't add any to any existing route. Don't use too many on your new route. And don't chop someone elses unless you have good reason and are willing to back it up in some cases with fists.
As for the aid Q you had.... simply put, the Wall Rat will place gear that is removable, stand on it, and place another piece to gain height. He will only fall if some of the gear he is standing on comes out of the crack. This is not a mechanical failure, but the placement the gear was in was just at the limit of the holding power of the gear. The Wall Rat can use the same gear as the Climber, and most of the systems of belays and such are the same. On occasion the Wall Rat will use other pieces of gear that are intended to be beat into the cracks and removed afterward, known as pitons. The Climbers rarely use these pitons, as modern gear is faster to place and is just as secure in most cases. The Wall Rat uses pitons as no modern gear will go into the cracks in that section of the route. We are talking hairline sized cracks.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Werner....
Yep, Largo got that going and I was just along for the ride. Man we had some fun.....
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WBraun
climber
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Then how is this policy enforced?
The "Honor System".
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Last one:
The first person(s) to "do" a route places the bolts? So then everyone who follows then "uses" these bolts if they want to also climb that same route?
Correct. The bolts stay after the first ascent.
If the subsequent climbers are more skilled and don't need as many bolts then they simply do not use all of them? If however the subsequent climbers are less skilled, then, they might need more bolts to do the same ascend? BUT they are not allowed to place them because only the first people to do a route can place the bolts?
Correct. But... the more skilled usually just use all the bolts, because if a route is done right, the bolts are where anyone will need them climbing at that level. What this means is on a free climb (not an aid climb) a great climber may not need all the bolts, but someone whos skill level is in line with the grading of the route will use all the bolts and be glad they are there. That is why great climbers who do new routes that are easy for them and do not put in bolts are seen as jackassses. They use up available rock and shut out the people that would get the most benefit from the route being well bolted. But.... if someone adds bolts to this route, be prepared to back up your actions. Very grey area.
If this understanding is correct, then how is this policy enforced?
People will chop added bolts. Usually very experienced people who know about local ethics and what tactics for getting the bolts in are "legal" and in line with the history of the area. Boldness is preserved. Added bolts usually don't last long. The other argument is that climbing should be safe for everyone and any dangerous routes should have bolts added so everyone is safe. This is the standard argument. Usually some elitist prick (like myself) will rage against this crowd, and if any bolts are added I would not be out of character to chop them. Usually it is newer climbers who bring on this "safe for all" argument because they are just not good enough to do the route in the manner of the first ascent, so they get all hissy and try to bring the route down to their level by making it safer.
Locker style edit:
Of course there are numerous variations on the theme. Bolts near protectable cracks get chopped.... Bolts on top of crags with a walk off sometimes get chopped... guides who place convenience bolts to make guiding the herd of cattle they call clients get their bolts chopped..... there really is too many to list and most are regional and area specific.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Problem with bolts is that their use can be acceptable or unacceptable depending on the climbing area.
However, placing a bolt is a permenant alteration of the rock. You have to drill a hole, and then you place a bolt which expands in the hole and is bloody hard to extract if you've done it right. It is there forever, or until someone actually takes the time to chop it.
So if there is any other way of putting an anchor in to protect your lead, that should be done before a bolt is placed.
Mike Dahlquist dropped me an email from his Europe trip, he is shocked at the use of bolts in the alps... here is an example he shot a picture of:
The bolt is right next to a crack into which Mike has placed a piece of gear we refer to as a "cam". There was no need to put the bolt there. In Yosemite Valley, that bolt would be chopped.
The problem with bolts is that any fool can put them in, they make the climbing more secure and thus easier... this is true both for aid climbing as well as free climbing. Sometimes only a bolt will do for protection. The trick in putting up a good route is to try to find a "natural passage" which may have some unavoidable bolts, but attempts to minimize the number of bolts, at least for "trad routes".
You could put a bolt in every 5 feet up a blank wall and get to the top by essentially climbing this ladder, but that wouldn't be very challenging. On El Cap this would be something like 600 to 700 bolts.
Better is to try to find a way which doesn't require so many bolts.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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If you didn't care perhaps you might get away with it for a few climbs, but at some point the locals who enforce the area ethic will run you off. This has happened.
The idea is to ascend the routes in as good a style as possible, part of that is minimizing what you do to the rock. If you are climbing a route already done by someone, the local ethic here is to leave it in the same state as it was first climbed. No new bolts. If you can't climb it then you should back off.
You are also right that pulling the bolt can scar the rock. Sometimes the holes are refilled with rock dust mixed with epoxy. Often the hanger is taken off and the bolt just sheared off at the rock surface.
There is no regulatory board that decides these things, it is the climbing community. As with any community they may see "outsiders" as threats... then act.
I see we'll have to keep you away from the bolt kit on your visit.
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nutjob
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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I thought Dingus was paranoid before. Now with that seed placed in my head, this thread seems diabolically perfectly planned to waste people's time.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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LEB - there are regulations on drilling bolts in Yosemite Valley, and there may be more on the way (see recent threads, e.g. Roger's [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=227546#msg229402"]Hypothetically... no pitons in the Valley[/url]), and there is a ban on using power tools to drill (currently we drill "by hand", with a hammer, which slows the process down considerably). Not all of these rules are enforced or are enforceable without climber cooperation.
There are also cliffs regarded as "out of bounds" for a variety of reasons: sensitive plants, nesting raptors, tourist vistas, rockfall danger, etc. Climbers sometime climb in these areas, and are sometimes hassled by the NPS LEOs. As far as I can tell, this cycle of life has been going on "since the begining". The history of Yosemite Valley as a National Park is very odd if you think it was supposed to be preserved in its "wild state," as even the native people altered what was going on in the Valley to enable them to live there.
I believe we are lucky to be able to climb there at all with such a light regulation of the sport. The biggest problem climbers face now is that there are restrictions on access because so many people come to see the Valley. Climbers feel a bit put out that their visits are not considered different then the statistical tourist who spends something like 15 minutes out of their car. Mostly I visit in the fall, winter and spring off season to avoid the summer crush, and heat, and the attention of the LEOs.
But even though I have been a weekender for the last decade, I do not count myself among the Valley regulars, I may have opinions, but I would defer to those who essentially live and climb there all the time.
I try to be extremely respectful of what is going on there in the climbing scene, which includes not bringing "a line" down to my ability when it might be sent in better style at a harder grade.
[Translation: "a line" is a passage up a section of cliff which may (or may not) be a route, "sending a line" in this context means climbing it, usually bottom to top.]
It is possible for me to stumble over a really nice climb that I am not able to do, go up and sprinkle bolts all over the place, retreat, and leave a mess for someone else to deal with later, casting the pall over the potential gem (rampant mixed metaphors). This happens less when the climbers putting up new routes have a good idea of what level of climbing is expected, and what the projects of the day are, who's pushing what in whatever direction and how. Yes the Valley is public, open to all, but the number of lines to climb is finite... and we all would like the highest quality routes to be established in one of the primier places in the world to climb. Unfortunately, since it is one of the primier places to climb, a FA in the Valley is considered a feather in the cap of some climbers juicy enough to try anything to gain that noteriety... thus some climbers feel pressured to put up routes which are junk. This is definitely in the eye of the beholder... but you can guess at some of the dynamics. And those dynamics put in motion a whole set of events from which many a good tale has be spun (the Forum has many of these sprinkled about).
Amazingly enough, this is all done ad hoc, with all the messy human interactions thrown in to make it socially interesting. And some truely amazing climbs get put up inspite of it all.
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