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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 13, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
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you know that the armed forces of this country would not stand to enforce the repeal of the 2nd amendment.
Wow, you are saying that if a legal process were followed to repeal the amendment, that the military would overthrow the gov't of the US, and all the 3/4 of states needed to ratify it?
And you would consider that military coup ending the experiment of the United States would be legitimate?
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
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Ken, brah, you are reading way too much into my statement. I never said that the armed forces would revolt. I was trying to imply that the portion of our nation that serves in the armed forces is generally more in favor of private gun ownership than the general populace. As such, I believe that they would bow out (AWOL or otherwise) rather than strip folks of their beloved kill-machines.
Ken, my friend, I was trying to help folks on both sides see that more nuance and less blanket-portrayal of the other side would be a good thing. Thank you for helping to illustrate my point.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
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yeah Moose, fear sucks. HST did call it a Kingdom of Fear for a reason, though.
and Jrig, I took a little run yesterday to scope out another tower. COLD as FECK! Tower looks good and in decent shape for an ascent sin ice tools.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
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And don't forget the KNIFING of four people on Thursday in the Bronco stadium parking lot.
How many of the four died from the knife wounds? How many would die trying to subdue a person with a knife?
Quite a different level between walking up to a person and stabbing them as opposed to firing death from a distance every couple of secs.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
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zzzz.... over and over again 'til infinity.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Great movie line, but as fact it is an epic fail.
We climbers know that the movie line is a ridiculous oversimplification. WE do fear. The goal is not to "not fear." The goal is to assess what we fear and respond appropriately and with self-control.
Fear is a normal and appropriate response to perceived threat or danger. The idea of having "no fear" in the face of perceived danger is ridiculous. Courage MEANS reacting appropriately and gracefully in the face of fear.
And the appropriate response to the threat (fear) of somebody coming at you with a knife is to use comparable force to neutralize the threat. If somebody comes at you with a gun, you use appropriate force to neutralize that threat. Our self-defense laws are built upon this principle!
The right of self-defense, which is implied by the right to life, also implies having the right to such weaponry as could reasonably be expected to be brought against you.
This is what gives the lie to "machine gun" or "nuke" arguments on the part of anti-gun-nuts. I pay a government to have nukes on my behalf, because I, qua ME, do not have to face the threat of a nuke directed at ME. Nukes, by definition are directed at US. So WE, collectively, own nukes as deterrent against others that would bring nukes against US. So, what I, qua ME, have a right to own for purposes of SELF defense include those weapons that could act as effective deterrent against somebody threatening ME.
It is right and reasonable to "fear" the threat of violence against one's person. It is also right and reasonable to possess the means by which to effectively neutralize such a threat.
These principles are implied by the right to life, and there is no "mind killing" in play in insisting on the right to life, thus the right of self defense, thus the right to possess such arms as are reasonably necessary to neutralize threats against my person. And I pay governments to react to threats (and possess the arms to effectively react) that are larger scale than just my own person.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
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Occupy gun threads with climbing content?
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
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Gumby asked:" Why do you feel you need a gun? (serious question from someone who doesn't like guns, but also doesn't feel he has the right to take them away)."
I use my guns to feed myself, my friends and pets. It is quite an expensive pursuit, with all of the licenses, tags, permits, gas, ammo, etc., but it rewarding to me. Plus they are fun to shoot for target practice.
I'm sorry to read about another school shooting. The pics on CNN looked depressing, with rows of students being lead out with hands in the air, being patted down by the cops. Guns and schools do not mix.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
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Guns and schools do not mix.
Yup, and schools are gun-free zones by LAW. Hmmm... doesn't seem to help much. Those laws and all.
I'd love to see somebody produce credible evidence to the effect that ONE whack job EVER said to himself: "That's it! I'm gonna go shoot x number of people (or however many I can) at such and such a school (or mall). Oh, wait. I can't do that. Bringing a gun onto school (or mall) property is illegal," such that a school (or mall) being a gun-free zone kept even ONE whack job from doing the deed.
Can anybody produce even a single case where the gun-free-zone law kept a shooter in check? I would seriously like to know if such a case exists. Even one.
The problem anti-gun-nuts have is that they must tout cases just like this one as exemplars of how bad guns are; yet in these very exemplar cases, what they actually have are examples of exactly how useless legislation IS in preventing these very sorts of exemplar cases! More laws (of any kind) are not going to prevent (or even minimize) these sorts of high-profile exemplar cases.
Your much stronger cases involve heat-of-the-moment shootings by otherwise normal people that probably would not have shot anybody had they not had a gun in their possession just waiting around for the heated moment.
So, you're better to have a thread about such cases than leaping onto yet another high-profile, whack-job case that actually makes the opposite argument you would wish to make with it.
Wait, we already have several threads like that.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
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And the appropriate response to the threat (fear) of somebody coming at you with a knife is to use comparable force to neutralize the threat. If somebody comes at you with a gun, you use appropriate force to neutralize that threat. Our self-defense laws are built upon this principle!
Mutual
Assured
Destruction
What if my child doesn't want to carry all these deterrents to school with him?
The problem anti-gun-nuts have is that they must tout cases just like this one as exemplars of how bad guns are; yet in these very exemplar cases, what they actually have are examples of exactly how useless legislation IS in preventing these very sorts of exemplar cases! More laws (of any kind) are not going to prevent (or even minimize) these sorts of high-profile exemplar cases.
Yoohoo, no more drunk driving laws either.
BTW, I own many firearms for hunting and recreation.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
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Hmm, I think that was exactly what Frank Herbert had in mind writing those words.
Excellent. Interpreted as YOU are interpreting the words, I agree. But, then, those words don't act as a very useful repartee to a gun owner saying that he owns a gun because he has fear of various threats.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
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moose, I don't hunt. I keep the firearms partly with the idea of food procurement if needed. I keep the firearms because they were bequeathed by another - I have never purchased a weapon.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
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There's nothing that anyone can do - guns are integrated into our society and can never be removed.
Every year a bunch of people in schools will be shot dead - along with people on the streets, gang members, shop owners, idiots in their trailer who thought it wasn't loaded....
We are just going to lose a few hundred people a year. That's the way it goes. Nothing anyone can do more than we are when it comes to that, as much as you'd like to think you can cure every sick mind or make bullets a zillion dollars each. Won't change sh#t.
We are a gun culture : /
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
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maybe Locker is onto something with this whole Bong culture thing.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
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Yunno, when I was a kid, people out West knew how to ride a horse and use a gun. Now the West has filled up with garbage. Sad to see.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
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Quit posting photos of __, (I recognize it) and keep quiet about it too.
Days ago I started a thread about preserving soft rock and it died after less posts than this thread.
Shameful.
As for nukes; turns out we got many benefits from the Cold War. We couldn't have gotten to the moon without ICBM technology. In fact we now rely on the Russian rocket developed as an ICBM just to service the International Space Station.
And we got a great deal on over 15,000 Russian nukes to convert to nuclear power fuels.
The problems with nuclear power could be mitigated by not building plants in earthquake zones or tsunami zones, OR FUKKING BOTH!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
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What if my child doesn't want to carry all these deterrents to school with him?
A right doesn't have to be exercised in order to remain a right. Possessing a right does not imply its forcible exercise. So, you and your child are free to not have any deterrents.
Conversely, ADULTS should also be free to exercise their right of self-defense using appropriate means to do so. Your child is safer if there are ADULTS at schools possessing those means and able and willing to employ them.
If you are really all that worried about the "rash" of school shootings, then push for what inner-city schools have: metal detectors and campus cops. Amazingly, students still get shot (and stabbed) at school in, say, San Bernardino. Amazing, inmates still get shot and stabbed in prison.
If you can't have effective violence control in PRISON, exactly HOW do you plan to have it at a school?
What LAWS do you have in mind, and, again, exactly how would those laws have prevented this particular case?
Again, if cases like THIS are the exemplars, then proposed legislation must explain how cases like THIS are solved by the law.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
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Duffield: more people probably knew how to bugger a horse, romance a cousin, or whip a Mexican then too.
EDIT: No way, Ron, d'you really know where that little Cutler sliver is? PM me? Cannya tell that I am doubting you?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 13, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
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The problems with nuclear power could be mitigated by not building plants in earthquake zones or tsunami zones, OR FUKKING BOTH!
Amen!
Let's make those nukes WORK for us. It's a proven technology at this point, and we know how to deal with the waste. An important part of a non-fossil-fuel-based energy economy.
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