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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
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Sorry if some of you think the title is over the top. I would have added a question mark but could not edit the title, and I don't want to delete my post out of respect for those that made thoughtful posts. This thread is not about a question mark. Although the chopped bolts may not have lead directly to the climbers death, the attitude the NPS is deploying certain can lead to unnecessary future deaths. This climber was not the first to die by being forced to rappel a dangerous route. Dangerous rappel routes are fine on remote mountains that are not popular; we all know climbing is dangerous, but to not let the climbing community solve problems like this is preposterous. Who do the NPS people work for anyway? Who do they think they are? I have seen over-zealous Park employees before. It's not a pretty sight.
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Gene
climber
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Nov 19, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
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There are tons of 'convenience' bolted rap routes in Yosemite. Should they be chopped by the NPS? That would cause a sh#t storm.
RIP Mr. Barton.
g
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Dickly
Social climber
KY
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Nov 19, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
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Sounds like the NPS dudes(yes, I can say that with certainty) got in over their head, they probably just wanted to impose their "Authority" over someone just so people would think they may be bad ass climbers who know everything. Kind of like Clints hero Ken Nichols.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 19, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
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Hmm, sounds like you don't know the NPS dudes, or Ken....
It sounds like the NPS folks are reviewing their local policy to see if it really prohibits bolts / fixed installations.
Ken - he has chopped in the past because he hoped it would prevent the 30' high crags (and others) in CT from being grid bolted. Everything there can be easily toproped.
The infamous Rumney chopping happened because a couple of CT guys said they were going to rap bolt one of Ken's favorite toprope routes. He told them not to do it, or they would regret it. They decided to "call his bluff". They bolted the route (Volcanic Eruption), led it, and then chopped the bolts themselves. One of the bolts was even next to a perfect cam placement. Ken thought, "what will hurt these guys the most?" He knew they liked to do the sport climbs at Rumney. So he chopped the bolts on most or all of them. Maybe not the best decision, as it made a lot of people not involved in the CT bolting hate him. But I think he partly felt he had to deliver on his promise to make those guys regret the bolting. They didn't bolt again in CT (at least not for decades).
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Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
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Nov 19, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
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DMT pointed out that the NPS doesn't work for us. That is an understatement. Too bad we can't do anything about it. Couldn't those rangers have found some way to serve the public other than chopping a couple bolts that were probably hard to spot from 10 feet away?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 19, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
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How many thousands of people have descended that peak safely without bolts?
When I brought up the new bolting policy adopted by NCNP in the "law of the first ascent thread" no one seemed to care.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
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Does 'safely' include close calls?
John, that's a 2,000 post thread right? I only got through 140 of them so far and I was not reading it for Park service bolting policy as much as for ethics and style info, which is what it appeared to be about.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Nov 19, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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The thread leads to a good discussion. Clint put up a rap route next to the East Buttress on Middle Cathedral (maybe you can post link Clint as I can't find the thread) that most (maybe not NPS) agree is great for a safer decent off that area. It was a dangerous descent before as it was easy to kick loose stuff off. It's obvious that NPS has different interpretations for different areas. The re-bolting of many climbs in Yosemite is not official yet everyone knows it's happening and who's doing it yet the park, although not officially endorsing it, isn't stopping it. Interpretation of the law will always be whether it's a traffic stop or a safer alternative to a descent.
I agree with up thread post that climbers need to be responsible for themselves when making safety decisions. Most of us know Clint knows what he's doing but we still need to make a decision for ourselves as to what is safe and what isn't
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 19, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
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Why does a route that was put up in 1940, that's been climbed by thousands, need bolts added to it?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 19, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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John,
I think those bolted rap stations on Forbidden were not on the West Ridge route, but down to the left of the loose approach gully.
Not sure, though - I haven't been there in a long time.
Personally, I'd rather not see bolts in the mountains, but I've used a couple of bolted rap routes (Snowpatch and South Howser). These are a little different than Forbidden, but maybe similar in some ways.
There are lots of rap routes in the Dolomites. (maybe also different).
I felt the same way about the Royal Arches rappel route.
FA in the 30s, and people walked off for decades.
I was fine to descend the Kat Walk / Cathedral Chimney from the East Buttress of Middle, too.
(Except that one time when a huge boulder came down it and nearly snuffed me and my partner.)
I'm still OK to go down it when it doesn't have too much snow. I think even in Yosemite, people should have some "mountaineering skills". But my partner last time really disliked that descent, so I thought - why not make a rap route like the Royal Arches rap route - people seem to be OK with that....
This quote on summitpost may be appropriate:
Selected Climbs in the Cascades writes "There is no easy way off Forbidden Peak." It's true. Many of us have felt that sense of uneasiness on the summit of Forbidden that goes with having completed only half the climb...
Here's one of Steph's photos which shows the general area of the bypass gullies and approach couloir:
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Nov 19, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
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Ed Hartouni brought up a good point as well when he brought up impacts of tat and the like on trees and blocks. The climbing population of "trade" routes has grown exponentially in the last decade and an obviously safe way off, coupled with the benefit of less garbage on the mountain seems justified. Of course the off shoot of adding safer descents is that more people might be inclined to do the routes knowing a safe descent awaits leading to more crowds and less safe conditions due to more crowds. It would be interesting to know how many more climb Royal Arches or The East Buttress knowing they can rappel instead of walk off......
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 19, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
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Manage the resource at a level appropriate to its use...
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Nov 19, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
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they call themselves " climbing rangers", I call them f*#king tools
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 19, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
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It would be interesting to know how many more climb Royal Arches or The East Buttress
knowing they can rappel instead of walk off.... Good point.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 19, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
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What, it's crowded up there now?
No bolts in the whole damn park? Get real!
Oh, and the Park Service can go phuk itself.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 19, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
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The official report has not been released, but reading the article this tragic death probably had very little to do with the chopped bolts. This is about a lot of people moving over chossy ground.
There were several references to rockfall triggered by just pulling ropes. The descent route in question goes down a gully below the fall line of the choss. Not sure how chopping bolts has anything to do with it. If the climber had been killed by broken tat or an anchor block that pulled it would be different. If the new rappel line avoided the choss above the gully, that would make a difference, but it is hard to tell that is the case from the article.
I am open to replacing tat infested rappels with bolt anchors, but implying the lack of bolts may have caused this accident is a huge stretch.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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These arguments that say making things safer will lead to more climbers never stopped anyone from making climbing safer. Hey, let's go back to hemp ropes. Did adding seat belts to automobiles crowd the roads? Maybe freeway crowding can be eliminated by getting rid of seatbelts.......better yet AIRBAGS!
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Nov 19, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
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What if you chopped some bolts and someone died because of your plan?
and what if you were on the clock ie getting paid by the public
who you are suppose to serve?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 19, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
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my old climbing partner soloed w ridge in mountain boots well into his sixties.
given the weather, the choss, the descents, the 50mostcrowded status, and the n00bies, i'm amazed more folks don't come to bad ends there.
there are serious issues to be discussed here, but that article isnt doing any of them.
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