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This thread has been locked |
all in jim
climber
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Oct 21, 2013 - 11:59am PT
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It's good that thread is gone for the reason that an innocent man's name was prominent in the title. Ethan didn't chop the tree, yet he was dragged into the flames as if he had.
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RtM
climber
DHS
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Oct 21, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
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Disappointed to say the least, that Supertopo decided to help in concealing this very important topic from public view.
I have to assume now that Supertopo.com, the owners of Supertopo.com, as well as the sponsors of Supertopo.com consider the incident to be an acceptable practice in the sport.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 21, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
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you know what they say about assumptions..
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Oct 21, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
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All In Jim, your buddy Ethan Pringle is just as guilty as the chopper. He was there, he condoned the action, and he refuses to even admit it was a "mistake." Kinder lies in his apology but Pringle doesn't even have the balls to answer. Pathetic.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 21, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
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Is there an 'ethical' thread on ST that doesn't devolve into bolt-chopping chest-thumping at some point?
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
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1st post "Trad Larry", it'd be nice to see some evidence of the last 3 parts of your statement, "The dude apologized, paid a fine to the Forest Service, is doing community service and planting trees".
Otherwise, imo, Joe Kinder is still clued as far as respect for nature. Time to write some sponsors. They need to spend this money on educating their climbers, not sponsoring kiddie spray.
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John M
climber
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
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Disappointed to say the least, that Supertopo decided to help in concealing this very important topic from public view.
Supertopo did not decide to conceal anything. The forum is set up so that if the Original poster deletes his/her post, then the thread can not be posted to anymore. Billygoat was the origninal poster. He/she deleted their first post. It was not a decision of the management.
From this thread..
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2051471&tn=100
Seasonal affective disorder... We all get a bit grumpy when the days get short. People seemed psyched to have a whipping boy.
Please speak for yourself Greg. Not everyone on that thread was grumpy. There are certainly a lot of grumpy people on this forum, but there were also a lot of reasonable posts and opinions that I agree with. That doesn't mean that I am grumpy. The guy screwed up. I tend to think his partner shares some blame as he likely knew the guy was going to chop the tree. I also think that his apology was lame. Do I want to hang him for that? Nope.. but he does need to learn how to treat the wilderness if he is going to remain an ambassador for the climbing community. So no.. I don't have a pitchfork out, but I will be paying attention. If that makes me grumpy in your opinion, then I hope that you never have to learn the hard way that when you don't hold someone accountable for their actions, then many often go on to repeat their behavior. Not that I believe that this guy will cut another juniper down. At least not in the West, but he does need to learn the distinctions and understand that there is a difference.
isnt it more accurate to say his sponsors paid his fine?
No.. if they had paid it and paid him his full contract, then yes. but otherwise no.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
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You guys are fuking pathetic.
Same old sh#t... a younger climber makes a mistake and you old fuks refuse to accept his apology as sincere because the words he typed didn't meet your standards. Sure he sprays like a rainbird and may come off as insincere, arrogant, and self absorbed... so fuking what... that is the world you/we left us/them. I'll bet my left nut you came off the same way to 50 year old geezers when you were in your 20's.
As the wise elders of our sport, what have you done to educate the younger generations of climber? That's what I thought.
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NinjaChimp
climber
someplace in-between
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
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Translation, "to hell with reasonable points, you've never posted here!"
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
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mechrist....if a 50 year old is a geezer you better put me in the freezer. Better yet, I think i'll head down to Arizona for some fun in the sun.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
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"a younger climber makes a mistake"
Mechrist, the guy is almost 30 and has been around climbing for awhile. Certainly not a teenage noob unaware of nature.
He's been around long enough to have known that chopping centuries old trees for the sake of putting up a new climb is not cool. But he knows that now.
This is more about the fact that this story is trying to be whitewashed from the web altogether. Does is not seem weird to you that not only was the original thread nuked but it's now locked so it can't be added to? Just doesn't make sense.
Wade - you hit the nail on the head with your post.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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So what do you guys want?
What is the acceptable amount of blood-letting to satisfy your thirst?
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
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Raymond that some of here called out here to be an arrogant, narcissistic mess of a statement and that those commenting negatively to it on his blog had their comments erased so everything came out as positive and glowing towards his "apology" on it?
I just read some posts on the last two pages a short time the thread where deleted and his apology. I found many posts just ridiculous and it seemed like a mob trying to burn him on the stake. This thread show the same.
I really doubt that he could have written an apology that the mob would have liked.
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harryhotdog
Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
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Not everyone here wants to beat on Joe, He apologized and I'm sure he regrets his decision to cut that tree,but the main reason for getting this out in the open is to educate people so it doesn't happen again. Is there something wrong with that? It turns a negative event into a positive event.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
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Climbers have been cutting down trees at various crags around the world for last 40 years, all before there was Instagram, and most of you are none the wiser. BS and False Equivalence. Particularly in the United States and especially in California.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
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So what do you guys want?
To be informed as part of the climbing community.
I don't want it sweep under the rug. and as I posted before what was is the fine or is that being resolved in the legal process? Is there a legal process going on? Is he really enrolled in in habitat restoration and tree planting.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
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Unfortunately the original thread appears to have disappeared. It's now on couchmaster's "people who delete threads" thread.
Why unfortunately? Because I have what I consider a constructive comment.
Yes, that thread had gone far enough in trashing, thrashing and creating its own mayhem.
I'm not going to restate the original issue nor name names.
I'm not even going to question whether the offered apology was "sincere".
However, my last post had mentioned that the climbing community should learn from this.
There are a lot of new climbers who come straight from the gym to the outdoors, climbing at a high level. I've even climbed with a few. To some of them, the climbing environment is their first exposure to real outdoor freedom and responsibility.
Being an Old Timer (well past 50, thanks), I've specifically tried to help them out with "good citizenship" in the mountains, as well as how to set a real anchor so they don't drop us in the talus!
I realized last night that trashing a sponsored climber's professional reputation is a serious matter. Even when it could be called justified.
So how to deal constructively with this problem?
I think the relevant sponsors should also see this as a "teaching moment". How? They could get together with the Access Fund and AAC Conservation and create a "good citizenship in the mountains" brochure. Print a large number of copies. Distribute it to climbing gyms and climbing retail shops (the few that remain). Print enough copies that people can take it home with them, not just a poster stuck in a corner wall.
And perhaps most importantly, require their sponsored climbers to post it on their home pages and Facebook pages.
topics for the brochure?
tree cutting - how old ARE these things and how long will it take for a new one to grow?
trail cutting,
scrubbing,
route "ownership",
rock trundling (whoo boy, talk about a contentious issue)
shitt**ing in the woods,
Bolt placement ethics.
Responsibility for self: accident avoidance.
USFS and NPS regulations.
and most importantly: personal responsibility. Think thrice before altering the environment/locale.
Ideas? Comments?
oh, and of course, any $$ they donate to the Access Fund or AAC Conservation would be tax deductible.
I've started what I hope is a more productive thread.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2253213&msg=2253213#msg2253213
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
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Yes, we have all done stupid things. Yes, forgiveness and understanding are great things. So is being held accountable.
Joe's apology is filled with spray and 1/2 truths. It reminds me of political statements, corporate earnings presentations and marketing BS. I don't get the impression that he is genuinely sorry, just sorry he got caught. In his blog post he fails to talk about how he initially lied about his involvement. He also says that he had no clue that his actions were wrong. He seriously expects us to think that he did not know that cutting down a live tree was wrong? I call BS.
Joe is fortunate enough to spend the majority of his life in the outdoors. He visits wild and amazing places on a regular basis and has done so for years. IMHO there is NO WAY he did not know that the tree was alive and that cutting it down was wrong. With that in mind, he flat out lied in his "apology." That tells me a lot about his character. Personally, I find it hard to forgive someone that doesn't even honestly admit their guilt.
I have written to all of his sponsors. I hope that others will take the time to do the same. The cutting of the trees was deplorable on a number of different levels. The attempt to "cover-up" what happened and the lies after the fact show that Joe is not truly remorseful. As a sponsored athlete, Joe lives off the good-will of the climbing community and tacitly makes the claim that he represent "the best" that the climbing world has to offer. His actions (cutting down the tree and his behavior after the fact) show that this is not the case. If we as a community allow this to pass without comment, then we are giving this behavior our stamp of approval.
If Joe turned himself in to the relevant authorities, paid a fine and voluntarily did community service, it would show that he takes responsibility for his actions and is willing to step-up to make it right. He would gain my forgiveness and my respect. He could turn a negative into a positive, and make a bold, positive statement. However, at this time he has done none of those things and I doubt that he will. He heavily moderates his blog and FB account and has deleted my questions regarding his actions and future community service. I could be 100% wrong, but my guess is that as soon as this thread and the discussion on social media stops, Joe will go back to business as usual.
Contrary to some posters, I do not see this thread as a witch hunt. In my opinion this thread is a constructive tool that allows members of the community to express our outrage over a climber's destructive and narcissistic behavior. I want to see this thread continue and see other climbers write to Joe and his sponsors. Joe needs to be held accountable.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
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He's been around long enough to have known that chopping centuries old trees...
You assume he knew it was a centuries old tree. The oldest trees on the east coast are about 500 years old (?) and huge. I wouldn't be surprised if most visitors to Tahoe thought the 100 year old Jeffrey pines were far older than the scrawny 1000+ year old Junipers (RIP).
I have no reason to think the situation didn't stem from simple ignorance. Most people can learn from their mistakes. Here's to hoping Joe, Ethan, sponsoring companies, and the climbing community continues to learn and avoids mistakes like this in the future.
Same goes for soil crusts in the desert... not just the famous cryptobiotic soils of the south west... or the fragile alpine tundra and kremmholz getting stomped in CO... etc etc.
Does is not seem weird to you that not only was the original thread nuked but it's now locked so it can't be added to? Just doesn't make sense.
It makes perfect sense if you know how the forum works. Try this: start a thread, get a bunch of posts (over 100 or something), then delete the first post. The thread remains, minus the first post, but is locked. That's the way it has been here for years (for ever?).
BULLSHYT boyeeee. We left a world of routes with as little sign of our passing as we could.
Yup... you guys never cut down any trees, never glued holds onto blank faces, never chipped pockets into boulder, and certainly never sprayed about it. Sh#t, your spray about D rated crags in the Carson area is at least on par with Joe and Ethan's spray about some of the best crags in the world.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
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This isn't about spray.
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