Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2006 - 11:41pm PT
|
I don't like to solo, or even climb, around other people.
I was up on a solo one day, minding my own business, when a couple people walked by, and I heard one say "Look at that idiot! He doesn't have a rope or chalk or even climbing shoes!"
Just leave me alone!
|
|
Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2006 - 03:43am PT
|
Well, we are suppose to live in a free country... I hope the choice to solo will remain with the individual.
What I am against is being forced to free solo. I once involuntarily had to free solo a down climb in Ojai because the leader miscalculated... We did not have enough rope for the repel and didn't have enough gear to build a second anchor. Because of this lack of foresight and the fact he had me follow him without warning of this dilemma... Well, no one should be forced to climb off of a rope...
I was shocked to find out there was no choice in the matter. Since I almost fell at one section because a portion of the rock fell away from beneath my feet, I still shiver at the situation.
I find it funny that he is now on this thread criticizing free soloist. All I can say is, Dude! You put me in danger without a choice. At least free soloist choose to their abilities. You never gave me the same chance.
I don't think you have the right to criticize when you force it upon others.
AF
|
|
cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2006 - 04:57am PT
|
Anastasia - If you rapped on a double rope you may have had enough rope to reach the ground. Set up the rappel as a single rope for the first to rap. The better climber then can rerig it as a double rope and rap down... You can also climb back up your rap ropes if things are looking dicey. No pursick loops? Wrap sling around rope 4 times with small loop on the high end. Put long end thru small for a secure knot. You can use the ends of the rap rope (without cutting) as additional slings
When does bouldering turn into free soloing?
You will reach 21 mph with a fall from 15'; and 30 mph with a fall from 30'. It would depend greatly on the surface you're speeding towards. For flat hard ground 12' seems the transition point for me.
For a free fall, ignoring air resistance,
speed (in mph) = 5.45 x square root of height (in feet).
__
My most exciting free solo was climbing the rotten log on Royal Arches when I soloed the route. Very focusing.
|
|
TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2006 - 06:16am PT
|
What cliffhanger said. Rap on single rope to the ground.
If you are of a mind to help "leader" after that, get a second rope, tie it to the first. "Leader" can then pull both ropes and rerig for two rope rap.
|
|
clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:36am PT
|
my favorite is when birds fly out into my chest.
|
|
b.p.
climber
bishop
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 12:42pm PT
|
A.F re:
You put me in danger without a choice...
Whose choice was it to climb? Were you forced?
Fact is, if you choose to step onto vertical ground, you assume responsability for putting yourself in danger. It doesn't matter who the "leader" is...if you tie into a rope and want to move on tilted space, you accept risk.
Choose partners with care and do the homework (approaches, gear, descents, weather, escape routes, timing, ect.) BEFORE TAKE OFF.
You are not a suitcase. You are a sentient being with the capacity to make choices.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but think about it...life IS harsh...and the Grim Reaper really doesn't give a damn about ethical issues...
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 01:18pm PT
|
No (rehash).. Jules Eichorn said "Strange things happen in the life of a mountaineer."
Sticks and Birds have hit famous free soloists...
|
|
b.p.
climber
bishop
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 01:21pm PT
|
Only as long as there are people operating in the neverneverland of a nanny society, where blame is more important than learning from mistakes...yeah, it's a bloody can o'worms allright!
|
|
wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 02:12pm PT
|
Blitzo, you like soloing *and* playing with rattlesnakes. Kind of a jb/crocodile hunter thing? Good luck with that.
Soloing is obviously a very personal decision, and if done in control, on the right day can be an incredible experience and an inspiration. But to folks that turn it into a routine part of their climbing, where does it lead? With that question asked, I certainly agree that having the mental control and skill of the soloist can be important to the trad climber; maybe moreso the alpinist.
It never occurred to me that a solid climber on that good day would fall while soloing. Then Derek fell off Sentinel. One of our common best friends, and an old mate of Derek's who was close with him going back to their Manchester days said to me after Derek died, "guess it was bound to happen sometime." I was shocked at the time he said that, but having thought a lot about this over the last 15 years, I think that most of us just can't beat the statistical odds forever. I also spent some time with Derek's mom and dad right after his death and that gave me some things to think about as well.
We've all gotta make our own decisions and accept the potential
consequences of those decisions.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 02:21pm PT
|
I could be wrong, but I read somewhere where Peter Croft said:
"Free-soloing is for the best climbers on their best days."
Or something close to that effect--seems reasonable to me.
|
|
Brian
climber
Cali
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
|
This thread is really beating a dead horse, and I don't think either side is likely to convince the other. That being said, here is my whack at the carcass...
I think soloing is fine, and I do some myself.
That being said, Maria Coffey's "Where the Mountain Casts Its Shadow" should be required reading for every soloist--especially those of us with families--so that folks who solo do so with (more or less) open eyes.
Brian
|
|
Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
|
Anastasia brings up a good point. Depending on the experience of your follower, the leader is the guide and is responsible for the followers safety and climbing ability.
How many times have you waited for climbs when the leader is taking a nOOb up a climb they have no business being on, because the leader wants to climb it. Travelers Buttress was the scene of this scenerio the last time I was at the Leap.
If there are two partners swapping leads, or you have an experienced follower, then I agree with B.P.
I lost my best friend and climbing partner, Colin Nell, a few years ago to soloing. However, I still do it within limits. I go up nothing I am not willing to downclimb, or I have done the route previously and know what it is all about.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 03:51pm PT
|
My thoughts on the subject are thus:
1. The technical grade is unimportant--looks and feel of the route ARE.
2. Down soloing is more important than going up.
3. The decision to back-off or walk away should never be trivialised.
4. If it ain't fun, it ain't worth it.
Needless to say, I walk away (or downclimb) more than I succeed in topping out. However, I AM here typing this--so the rules work for ME.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
|
4. If it ain't fun, it ain't worth it.
So true. I love being out there, but it ain't a speck of fun if it turns sketchy.
It's amazing how different it is to climb with and without gear. With gear, a climb is broken into the sections that are defined as you place gear. Long climbs are broken into pitches, pitches into sections of good gear and not-so-good gear.
Without gear, a climb becomes one complete unit. The moment I step into a ropeless climb, I completely forget about breaking up the climb into rests and places to put pro. Usually I forget about gear altogether, remembering it with a smile as I climb through belay stations.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 04:39pm PT
|
I really like Mojede's analysis, nothing focuses your mind down way beyond preconceived perceptions to what is there, than, the free solo.
The OP was on my fiftieth b-day, you'd think I'd a learned by then !? Oh well.
Marty(R) style edit; "relax (?) and just say yes!"
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 08:24pm PT
|
I have "seen" this free soloing. It's not really free.
You still are tied into the umbilical cord of knowledge and judgment.
Knowledge and judgment are earned through proper work.
Where is free? Everything requires knowledge and work.
When will you start?
Still when all breaths (prana) is used up, one will fall out of their material body (death).
|
|
wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 09:00pm PT
|
You're kidding yourself khanom. The "statistics" argument does not say that it is a game of chance. I agree with you that it is not a game of chance. Especially when performed by the best climbers on their best days. It is just that if one puts oneself in harms way often enough, in which a mistake *could* happen, and a signifcant number of factors are not in one's control, over a long period of time it becomes *likely* that something will happen. In the case of climbing uproped, that generally means something very bad.
With all due respect, there are many climbers that have fallen to their deaths while free-soloing; some of which were exceedingly good at their craft. Bachar, Croft, Potter; these guys are the exception, not the norm.
|
|
GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:23pm PT
|
I have solo'd in zone 1 and on a rare occasion zone 2 in comfortable situations (easier routes, ones i've dialed and its the easiest way to get on something, etc) but I dont have the mental power to solo zone 3. that garners respect, straight up. its not like any idiot will die soloing a 300 foot route. 15 feet up off the ground seperates the people with their heads in the right places, or up their asses.
|
|
wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:29pm PT
|
You don't seem to understand the statistics "argument" khanom. I'm not talking about climbing stats., or stats. for soloing. Simply stated, over time, especially a long period of time, stuff tends to happen. For example, if I roll two dice, on the first roll it is pretty unlikely that I will get a four on both dice. But if I roll those two dice over and over again, over time it is very likely that I will get both dice to show fours. If I roll those dice enough times, it is a virtual certainty that both dice will show fours. As a soloist, when your fours come up you will probably not walk away from it.
That is not to say that if you go out soloing tomorrow, you are necessarily playing a game of chance or that you are likely to die tomorrow from falling off your route. You can mitigate that risk tomorrow by being highly skilled and by making good decisions. Also, these simple facts based on statistics have nothing to do with say, the statistics of how many people have fallen soloing, versus how many people have not.
And if you think you can control all of the factors in climbing, like rockfall, like weather, etc. to the extent that it will never endanger you while soloing, you are seriously delusional and have obviously not been paying attention. I don't know you or your skill level, and if you want to tell me that you are so dialed in on your soloing that you will never make a mistake, whatever. I was very familiar with the skill level of Derek Hersey after climbing with him extensively for many years, and he fell off a route that should have been *well* within his ability and experience level as a master soloist. To this day, none of us knows exactly what caused him to fall. It certainly was not because of a lack of ability to downclimb out of trouble. Derek was known to downclimb multipitch routes of 5.10 and harder, sometimes onsight.
The fact that guys like Bachar and Croft have soloed so much, and at such a high level, and are still here, speaks of an astonishing level of skill and control. It also speaks of a fair degree of luck.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
|
(edited out because i prefer WB's response)
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!