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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
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Hard for me to tell if you're serious or trolling. Are you saying that we should dumb everything down until there is no risk of fatalities, and people have no need to look after themselves?
Sorry, my sarcasm has gotten the best of me.
No, I don't advocate that. I advocate for common sense solutions that are easily implemented and simple to maintain. When 3 people die in a 4-week period, something is currently wrong.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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An example of a fix on Whitney coordinated from that website that had to do with poor signing, that resulted in many rescues a year:
Why a sign? What would Norman Clyde do?
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
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I'm sure I almost died a few times down in them deserts when I was in high skool. No GPS, no maps, no hat... just a 1L water bottle and some friends intentionally getting lost for 6-8 hours with Lucy. Back then you could wander out Fiery Furnace way without a guide. First few hours were spent wandering, next few hours were spent, then we would realize we had no idea where we were and try to find our way back. Darwinism doesn't always work the way it should.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
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Guessing her weight/ lack of physical conditioning is responsible for her death more than lack of signage. Sad none the less.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
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No, I don't advocate that. I advocate for common sense solutions that are easily implemented and simple to maintain. When 3 people die in a 4-week period, something is currently wrong.
Not necessarily. Could be something of a statistical anomaly. We just happened to have two elderly folks and a possibly overweight one (all of whom are more vulnerable than the average person to heat) attempt the hike in the hottest summer I can remember recently in UT.
The article mentions only one other death, which was a different modality. I'm not sure there is enough evidence here to suggest a pattern that could be corrected in any way short of significantly altering the experience.
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Roots
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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This is the third fatality this month at The Wave. As a result, the BLM is currently considering adding additional signs marking the way to The Wave, and making changes to the permit process so that people do not feel compelled to hike in on questionable days.
And there you have it...accomodations for all are being planned.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
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The Bright Angel Trail has drinking fountains, Covered shade structures, and a PSAR (Preventative search and rescue team).
Still, every year several fry their brains and die.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
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^^
^^I always thought that had as much to do with kids dropping rocks onto the freeway
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
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What would Norman Clyde do?
He'd probably agitate against a "wilderness" ethic steeped in regimentation. The essence of wilderness remains uncertainty. The essence of modern American Designated Wilderness is rigid allocation of persons and places. The permit system on Half Dome, the JMT, and "The Wave" are all symptoms of a "wilderness" ethic devoid of a wilderness soul.
John
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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"When 3 people die in a 4-week period, something is currently wrong."
Yep, but stupidity is a problem that's larger than signage.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
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I don't know if I agree with that John. I'd say the permit system is a comprise to try to preserve some soul. I think part of the wilderness experience(and soul) is not having a jillion people around. Absent a permit/lottery system, or making something really hard and/or expensive to do, how do you preserve the uncrowded part of the wilderness?
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Sciurus
Sport climber
St. George UT
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
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I like the idea of giving winners of the online lottery the option of opting out for a different and safer day. For example, having the option to hike on a different date when temperatures are over 100 degrees. It takes enough effort and some luck to get the permit in the first place, which probably result in people being very reluctant to not do the hike even when their common sense tell them not to do it. In other words, if your chance to see The Wave is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, you will be very hard pressed to give it up, even though it will be wise to do so.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
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"The essence of wilderness remains uncertainty."
This is a good book about such things.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
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Guessing her weight/ lack of physical conditioning is responsible for her death more than lack of signage. Sad none the less.
Very tragic...
Heavy people don't dissipate heat well. Some of them don't seem to know that and get into trouble.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
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Steve,
Based on my personal experience (which is entirely inadequate to make generalizations), the best way I've seen to preserve a true wilderness feel (including solitude) is to avoid designating it a wilderness at all. When Congress designates a wilderness area, or the President designates a National Monument, or Congress creates a National Park, they put the designated area "on the map" as it were. Then the "eco-tourists" arrive and crowds become a problem.
I'm obviously exaggerating, but my hyperbole has a point. I still have very little trouble finding solitude in the Sierra, even in designated wilderness. If you try, you can still have an entire Yosemite cliff to yourself or your party. Just ask Ed H.
John
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
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They should block the start of the trail with a wall that has a hole about 2 feet in diameter four feet high. You have to make it through the hole before you can go on the trail. Of course once you start screening peoples qualifications to hike you have assumed a degree of responsibility for those you allow to hike.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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Based on my personal experience (which is entirely inadequate to make generalizations), the best way I've seen to preserve a true wilderness feel (including solitude) is to avoid designating it a wilderness at all. I'd love some examples. Everything I've seen unprotected is overrun by mining, private property and motorheads.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
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if your chance to see The Wave is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity... This Wave thing looks like the petting zoo of the Red Desert.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
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Seems like an excessive amount of carnage for a forty-five minute hike.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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"...all hikers should be required to demonstrate basic intelligence by hiking above Vernal Falls without jumping into the water."
Heh!
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