Thoughts on Haul Lines (Static vs. Dynamic)

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Messages 21 - 40 of total 72 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
May 21, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
I think there is an argument for using a Dynamic hauline so you have a back up in case your lead line gets core shot.

At the same time a careful leader on even the most gnarly terrain has the ability to prevent core shots.
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
May 21, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
Just wondering what do people do when aid climbing on super loose stuff? Is there a system using double ropes that doesn't cause a huge cluster?

You take your time, negotiating every placement very carefully. You test the suspect rock as best you can and you find the best alternative. You use screamers on your pro, runners to direct your rope from sharp edges. You use a fat rope, and most importantly...you don't f*#k up. And if you do surf a block you just hope to god it doesn't land on you, your partner, or your rope.
benzo

Big Wall climber
tacoma wa.
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
Could the same arguement be said for a dynamic haul line being used as an anchor saver?
minitrax blows during hauling on a static.

Its possible that looking at a dynamic haul line system as leader back up isnt fundamentally functional, but maybe keeping a dynamic system as a whole could be safer all around?
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
May 21, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
A dynamic haul line is more likely to bounce over a sharp edge while hauling, get cut and drop your whole kit to the deck.

Even if your pully fails while hauling, you should have the line backed up with a draw and be clipped in with your gri-gri to the haul line on the otherside. There should never, ever be any reason the haulbags fall onto the anchor.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
May 21, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
I agree that viewing a haul line as some sort of safety backup is mighty far-fetched. And a Screamer connecting the haul line to the harness will be worthless in this situation. Screamers only have a chance to be effective (it really isn't clear if they are ever effective) when the fall distance is relatively short. This is because a Screamer can only absorb a fixed amount of fall energy, and when the fall is humongous, that fixed amount is a very small fraction of the total energy and simply won't make any difference in the resulting impact.

The only way to up the odds against severing the climbing rope is to use twin or half rope systems, and these aren't well-adapted to granite big wall climbing.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 21, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
Have any of these scenarios ever happened? I.e., leader falling entire length of a haul line and surviving, falling haul bags ripping anchor, etc?

I feel like I've heard some of this actually has occurred but don't know for certain. I'm sure a long time valley dweller would know.

Personally I just wouldn't buy a static line that really not useful for anything other than hauling. Maybe if I was a regular wall guy but I'm not.
Jane Gallwey

Big Wall climber
Ireland
May 21, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Yeah RGold, that's why I was wondering whats the least cluester-y way. Over this side of the pond people would think you were downright mental if you went up new routing/chossy sea cliff climbing with a single rope, but since its a pain for walls nobody uses two.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 21, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
While Euros aren't particularly known for their aid climbing they do it and,
at least until recently, they did it frequently with double ropes. It seems
likely double ropes would have prevented this but it seems equally likely
nobody is going to start using them over here.
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
May 21, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
I don't get why the haul line was clipped to his chest harness.

Me neither. Seems like a bad place to carry your hauline, uncomfortable to have all that weight on your shoulders and more likely to pul your center of gravity back and pitch you upside down (assuming it was clipped to the back). In 15 years of wall climbing I have never seen or heard anybody doing that.

I have read one other account of a climber failing to the end of their haul line. I believe it's written in John Dills "Staying Alive" article in the supertopo book. I think it was some kind of mistake at the anchor though, like he unclipped himself but was still attached to the end of the hauline, not a lead scenereo. What happened to Mason is pretty much unheard of.

The main problem I see with doubles is who in their right mind wants to clean a pitch jugging on a 9mil?
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
May 21, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
I have several stories of the haul bag leaving the ledge unexpectedly but those stories were before static line use was popular. Would the bag rip off the line ? or would the anchors likely fail ? Or probably no big deal? it would be good to know now that many people use static lines.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
May 21, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
I don't get why the haul line was clipped to his chest harness.

In this situation, given the distance, it wouldnt matter where it was clipped.
Levy

Big Wall climber
So Cal
May 21, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
I have always advocated the use of dynamic ropes for the haul because of the possibility of cases like this. In addition, over the years, I have seen haul bags get dropped twice. I have always said, if you have a hauling accident & the bag gets dropped, you might yard the whole anchor & yourself off the wall.

My friend Banny Root was soloing Zodiac when he dropped his haulbag. As it zipped down, he told me he thought he was going to die. Luckily for him he was using a dynamic rope. The ability to have a back-up lead line alone is well worth the little bit of extra work to haul the bags on a dynamic rope. What are you gonna do if your lead line gets a core shot? Are you gonna lead on your static line? Not if you want to live.

My final thoughts are: suck it up & forget hauling on static lines, they're just too dangerous.
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
May 21, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
Core shots are what the extra duct tape is for...
benzo

Big Wall climber
tacoma wa.
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
^^^
starting to wonder about Lambones sanity... but lets roll with it.
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
May 21, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
I've done over 40 walls and never once core shot my lead rope.

I have core shot several haul lines. Hauling f*#ks up ropes quickly...a dynamic rope even quicker.

If I core shot (shoot?) my lead line I'm gunna tape that sh#t up and bail. Not finish the route on a blown out chewed up dynamic hauline.

That's just me...

And if you are dropping haul bags you have no Buisness being on a wall. Period. Yer bound to kill somebody else...
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
May 21, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
+1 Lambone
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
May 21, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
Norweigan proposed climbing on two normal size dynamic ropes as if they were doubles, ie clip the haul line occasionally into the pro. It would require the second climb faster than the hauling, and release the bag every time he passed a piece. I dont see anything wrong with this idea, except that it would slow you down a bit and add friction to the haul system, as if hauling weren't hard enough.
Levy

Big Wall climber
So Cal
May 21, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
When I was doing Waterfall Route with E.E., he took a short daisy whipper & got a core shot on his lead line on a sharp crystal band. This was on a Roca Tasmania which is like a Stratos and had edge cutting resistance. Would he still be here without the Roca Tasmania? Who can ever say but yes Lambone, core shots can & do happen and not all core shots are limited to damaging the mantle only. The daisy whipper Erik took cut some of the core strands too. Duct tape is not going to fix that!
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
May 21, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
Yeah RGold, that's why I was wondering whats the least cluester-y way. Over this side of the pond people would think you were downright mental if you went up new routing/chossy sea cliff climbing with a single rope, but since its a pain for walls nobody uses two.

U.S. climbers have been intensively developing and refining single-rope big-wall technique for at least sixty years. Some techniques would have to be revisited and revised before half ropes or twin ropes could even be contemplated. The present tragedy is sad and horrible, but it isn't as if there is an epidemic of severed lead ropes in Yosemite motivating everyone to rethink their highly-evolved and beautifully-adapted systems. Add to this the fact that most U.S. climbers, unlike their U.K. counterparts, never use double ropes and so are inexperienced in handling them and you have a pretty solid recipe for the status quo.

If efficient double-rope techniques for chossy big walls are going to be developed, I think it far more likely that the innovators will come from the U.K. or Europe.

In other words, Jane, it's on you...
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
May 21, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Will be turning my 11mm static haul line into a tree swing and tree-to-tree tyrolean traverse for the kids. Going all dynamic, now.
Messages 21 - 40 of total 72 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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