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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:39am PT
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In the end we all fall back on the simple systems that lack equalizing perfection. Least fussy and safest is just tying in with the (dynamic) climbing rope itself. Virtually no one dies from a using a standard overhand-tied cordalette in spite of it's load-distributing imperfections. It's quick and easy so it remains the norm for many folks.
Although there has been vast experimentation with anchor set-ups and there are actually some solutions to the SRENE challenge.. what RGold says is true:
"equalization is not practically achievable in the field."
JTM
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:44am PT
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Virtually no one dies walking to the curb to get their mail.. but it does happen. People will always figure out ways to kill themselves. Add ropes and knots into the mix.. ticking time bomb. ;)
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:45am PT
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Tremendous post rgold, that's a new way of thinking of anchors for me. I've always been an equalizer. I get confused easily by diagrams like the one you posted but I understand the idea that belayer and belay point are on independent pieces. I never did that and always equalized, with this huge cordalette I would carry for that purpose. The reason not to tie a string of clove hitches in the lead rope was that they wouldn't be equalized.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:50am PT
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I agree- nice one RGold. It's seems effective.
I'm a fan of just using the rope. There's a bunch of different ways to do it.
Don't need no stinkin' cordalette.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:52am PT
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the reason not to tie a string of clove hitches in the lead rope was that they wouldn't be equalized.
On a string of vertically placed pieces they would be equalized.
There's a different technique for every circumstance.
Having only one size fits all is n00b ......
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:06am PT
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"There are things out there, on the internet.
People call them "trolls""
It's funny that troll-threads regularly get called out, but that doesn't stop anyone from posting anyway, as though it was a genuine question.
Why do people do that? It's not as though the OP is going to come back and glean your wisdom...mostly, they're probably just sitting there laughing robustly.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:11am PT
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Thanks Werner, I'll have to miss the anchor demo at the cookie and a lot of other things because I'm trapped in Washington DC. Let's say you're anchor is in a vertical crack, three pieces in a row. rgold is saying that equalization doesn't work and one piece will take all the load anyway. If that's true you could hang off the lowest one, and belay off the highest one, and the middle one is the backup.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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apogee
At a certain point the troll becomes totally irrelevant in a subject matter like this.
He's not even in the picture anymore if he's a troll.
The thread then just evolves around the interested individuals and takes a life of its own apart of silly posts like you have just made.
Never underestimate the world around you.
If you do! "You're a stupid American" ......
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TheTye
Trad climber
Sacramento CA
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:19am PT
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So can someone break down the belay swap procedure when using the rope for anchors? I love the idea but haven't used it because I lead and my girlfriend follows and I cant figure out how to get her on the anchor and me off the anchor and ready to climb without it turning into a clusterf#$k...
-Tye
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D'Wolf
climber
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:43am PT
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Tye -
There is no "breakdown". Just don't do it. As has been previously stated it is good to know multiple methods and techniques, and to use them as appropriate to the situation.
When I do all the leading I do not use the rope to construct my anchor; doing so complicates the leading process and slows things down. It can be done but it is slower in the end and presents the possibility for error. I will use the rope if swinging leads that don't have "rope stretcher" pitches or if leading single pitch routes. If doing all the leading, I use a cordelette to distribute the load. Other times, I use components of both together.
Multiple methods; multiple techniques. No single method is appropriate for all situations...
Cheers,
Thom
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Feb 22, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
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Jim Titt from Munich posts here once in a while, but for some reason, much more often on RC.Com. I couldn't find the posts/threads, but he presents some very convincing evidence a) against the sliding X, b) the impossibility of equalizing, and c) the dangers of extension shock loading. He has acccess to testing equipment and the knowledge and experience for using it sensibly, and he also has, I believe, access to the German Alpine Club's extensive data base on testing ropes and anchors. He did some very interesting tests on equalizing loads with the rope, slings, and cordolettes. He found that when using a cordolette with three legs, if there was even a tiny bit of difference in the length of legs - a difference no one could see or feel - then the loads to each leg were grossly disproportionate. So if you are using a three-leg cordolette, you are essentially anchoring from one piece. Which is fine, of course, it really is. All of this anchor discussion makes many people impatient, but it is just a way of learning to use the tools sensibly. I certainly don't spend a lot of time agonizing over the anchors I build. Good pieces and good rock - after that, in most cases what you do doesn't matter too much, e.g., I would never use the sliding X but I wouldn't go nuts if one of my partners did
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TheTye
Trad climber
Sacramento CA
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Feb 22, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
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Wolf-
Yea. That is kinda what I was thinking but I thought mayhap there was something I was missing that made it clean and quick, like maybe clove hitching to additional biners or something like that... but yes, cordellete all the way... and maybe the occasional rope anchor at the last pitch...
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 22, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
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Tye, if you are not swapping leads it gets difficult to use only the rope. Someone may pipe in with a method that works that I'm not aware of, but most of the time that scenario is going involve a cordalette or equalized slings for her to clip into. At that point you are probably going to be clipped into it too negating the rope-only method.
Edit to add:
If there is a large enough ledge, the hubby and I sometimes just untie and swap rope-ends when there is only one leader (providing it can be done safely of course). That way the rope is already flaked correctly negating the rope clusterf*#k and a lot of time is saved.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 22, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
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rgolds setup is a lot easier to understand if you just do it. Go try it starting at step 1 and work your way through. You will find it very quick and simple to do and pretty obvious when building it.
It is automatically set up for swapping leads. If you don't plan to swap leads a cordallette or other non rope only anchor may be preferable but is still not absolutely necessary.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 22, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
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...Take a nap?
...swap..er.. something other than rope ends?
;)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 22, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
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Solid
Redundant
Equalized
and have No Extension if one of the redundant components fail
Does this apply to a boot axe belay too?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 22, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
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Dangerous!
Well, I did ad that "providing it can be done safely" disclaimer. Obviously there's always ways to UN-safe any procedure.
I actually did it one time and started leading having forgotten to tie back in...
Yeah.. Let's get real.. I'd be willing to wager that's happened to many of us leaving flat ground. Look at the up- side.. At least if you forget to tie back in on multi-pitch you'll be dead instead of maimed for life if you fell off.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Feb 22, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
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Bombproof gear tolerates just about any construction method.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Feb 22, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
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"IMHO untying during a multipitch climb is NOT a real GUD habit to get into..."
Agree locker. Always has made me nervous but admit I have done it plenty. I have often been the only leader or not done the leading at all. Using a separate cord for making the anchor works better for me in these situations. Follower comes up and clips to master point, flop or re flake the rope and go.
Erik
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SuperTopo on the Web
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if any piece blows, is it going to cause something else to blow and/or shift things enough to screw me?
Let us know!