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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jun 11, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
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Interesting stuff. Please note that my responses are temperated by my consumption of one Sierra Nevada porter, three Old E's, a hard schlepp up to the base of El Cap, and some really tasty apple cider thingy. But here I am.
Nutjob most assuredly gets it. It seems almost too good to be true, isn't it? We are saved by the grace of God - through faith, not by works - a free gift, so it's, like, not something we can even boast about, eh? So keep searching, nutjob, the answer is closer than you may suspect.
Don't let go - right on! Who but God knows how long a "day" is, eh?
Dirt - a "god" [without the capital "G"] is any other spirit in the spirit world. If you believe in God, and if you get the rest of the schtick, you will also get that there are other spirts under control of the Evil One - the Father of All Lies. Various powers, principalities, thrones and stuff at work to lie, kill, cheat and deceive. How do you fight a lie? With the truth? Who is the Truth? You know. How do I prove it? I don't know!
Wootles - Dr. Laura is cool! I admire her immensely. She gets it big time. She is a Believer, but a Jewess.
The laws you quote above are true - they seem absurd by today's standards, but they are the Law from the Book of the Law - the first five books of the bible. Crazy little sh}t that is punishable by death. But that's the nature of God.
The Good News is this - as Christian Believers, we are under GRACE and not the law. We are set free from the law of sin and death! [Strange but true, hard to explain, beyond the scope of this particular internet posting]
Is it "fair"? Hell, no! We deserve to die for violating God's laws. God is perfect, we aren't.
But here's the loophole - Jesus paid the price ultimately for our sins. We're set free because HE paid the price. It's sort of a substitutional payment, like someone paying a ticket for someone else. All you have to do is believe in Him who paid for you.
Voice of Dirty Harry: "So do, ya? Huh?"
Cheers,
Pete
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 11, 2006 - 10:51pm PT
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First I'll start out by stating that by "fundamentalist" criteria my belief system is certainly not, "fundamentalist"
I was however raised in that tradition, have plenty of them for relatives, friends and aquaintances and my only reaction to the original post was a puzzled "HUH?"
You YDNWTFYATAbout
Translation (you don" know what the feck you are talking about)
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jun 11, 2006 - 10:55pm PT
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American christianity is a form of political ideology masquerading as religous faith. Deploying the ultimate force of government to root out the "evil" and dominate with its own particular delusion.
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pyro
Trad climber
Ventura
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Jun 11, 2006 - 11:04pm PT
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graduated in a christian highschool
won't sleep with dirty women.
take off shoe's prior to entering home.
word of prayer at each meal.
foul language is never allowed.
remeber to spread the word to all.
each morning read a chapter of proverbs.
give to the church some of your pay check.
fast a meal onece a week.
a friend sleeps w/your wife your allowed to kill him.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 11, 2006 - 11:05pm PT
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American politics is a direct outgrowth of the Protestant Reformation the church congragational organization schemes, and the philosophical thought that followed. This was preceded by the concepts of personal accountability of Aguistine and other Catholic philosophers. You live in a Christian nation. Get over it. Or perhaps you would like to live in a nation founded on Islamic principles.
Saudi Arabia perhaps?
Or Hindu, Bhudist, anamist, atheist, take your pick!
No body is stopping you from voting with your feet.
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MikeL
climber
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Jun 11, 2006 - 11:07pm PT
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People commonly think that religious fundamentalism comes from the deep past. It doesn’t; it comes from the early Twentieth Century, at the same time a lot of new thinking was coming out in so many areas (theoretical physics, epistemology, philosophy, linguistics, psychology, anthropology).
Religious fundamentalism started when Princeton University theologians tried to make Christianity scientific by making it verifiable and dependent upon biblical texts. They hoped that then people could turn to the Bible and see whether a theological proposition was valid or not, in much the same way you can turn to an experiment to see if a scientific hypothesis is valid. That was the intention, anyway.
Religious fundamentalism has spread throughout the globe widely, in both a Christian and Muslim context (not just in the U.S.). Initially, Europe seemed to be immune to its spread, but of late, there have been reports of it taking hold there, as well.
This isn’t to say that there haven’t been religious revivals before the early 20th Century. There have been a number of them at various times in history.
MikeL
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MikeL
climber
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Jun 11, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
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Lois, you’ve asked an esoteric question. I’m not a theologian, but I think I know the story philosophically.
John’s Gospel does something every other’s doesn’t. He says that in the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God: Christ was the Word, became flesh, and walked among men. His coming brought all form to the world. Later Paul, in reflecting on the difficulties of gentiles turned Christian, believed that men could not fulfill the Law of God (man is only human), but man could conform to the spirit of the law. Paul said that what finally mattered was not conformity to the Law (i.e., good works) but belief in the mission of Christ (salvation). Christ had walked the earth and hence made up for the sins of all men (see story of Adam and Eve) once and for all. What was necessary, according to Paul, was to see Christ’s mission and believe in it. Why then the Law? Paul said that God gave the Law to humans to reveal that they couldn’t fulfill it (God is perfect, men aren't), to show them their sinfulness, and hence their need for salvation.
Each of the gospels emphasized different things or spoke to different audiences, I believe. John’s gospel is controversial, but his gospel seems to be the most theologized version of the life of Christ, and I believe it is the one most used by evangelical protestants.
I could probably use some help here on this issue. Help.
MikeL
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 11, 2006 - 11:39pm PT
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LEB let me try to answer, however keep in in mind that in the strictest "fundamentalist" circles I'd be considered apostate I think I can answer mostly from their perspective.
Sin isn't just "bad deeds" it is the absence of perfection. As perfection is an impossible achivement for a human it can only be obtained by "grace" In this tradition Jesus was 100% God and 100% man then the link to the older Jewish concept of a "blood atonement" kicks in. No pain / no gain!
The key and useful concept is the surrender of the ego to a higher plane and in that respect is identical to eastern methodoligies. There is no Karma / reincarnation, (no second chances)in this tradition though. "It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgement" That judgement by , God, the universe, your survivors, what ever context you want to put it in.
BTW Mike "revivals" have happened on about a 100-50 year recurring cycle all the way back to the first century. I don't know about other traditions (Hindu, Moslem, etc.) but I'll bet the same recuring dynamic applies.
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Soulsurfer
Trad climber
carlsbad, Ca
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Jun 12, 2006 - 01:13am PT
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I like MikeL's answer.
He seems to sum it up well.
To date I have not killed anyone, enslaved anyone and am not 'happy' an Al-Queda leader is now dead. It actually saddens me a lot.
I do love having a peace in my heart that only God could give me.
In any case, I am tied to you all out in Supertopo land by a love of climbing. SO, if you beleive or don't believe in __, I still enjoy seeing your climbing photos and hearing about your climbing stories.
Joe B
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 12, 2006 - 01:25pm PT
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To each their own.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 12, 2006 - 01:36pm PT
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The degree to which fundamentalists become extremists is directly proportional to the libido.
To convert a Hardshell Baptist to a Methodist, you gotta geld him. The livestock might appreciate that.
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Toddtar
Trad climber
Spartanburg, SC
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Jun 12, 2006 - 01:43pm PT
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I heard a good explanation of the Trinity.
A man can be a father to his child, a husband to his wife and a son to his mother. 1 person 3 identities.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Jun 12, 2006 - 02:33pm PT
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"Top 10 Signs You are a Fundamentalist Christian"
#1 you post under an alias to spew your fundamentalist BS because you are too embarassed to regurgitate that garbage under your own name.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Jun 12, 2006 - 03:19pm PT
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More Air:
I hate seeing any group or person slammed personally. I do want to add to your post that a lot of non-Fundamentalist Christains do the following:
* providing shelter to the homeless.
* feeding the poor.
* Giving money and help to disaster areas.
* Providing employment help to the jobless.
* Food, medicine and medical aid to poor countries.
* Help digging wells, building roads, brigdes etc. for the poor.
* Sponsoring good youth programs like the BSA.
* Teaching youth moral values.
* Drug rehabilitation.
* Giving spirtual strength & motivation to those in need.
Seems that people of all sorts do these things, and that is a good thing.
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Jun 12, 2006 - 03:31pm PT
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I understand the frustrations in the top-ten list. I too wondered about these things, even after I met the Lord. I personally have found answers to all those questions and many others. Think about this, it’s not what you know that matters, it’s who you know. Have you met a God that is willing to die for you? No other God in the history of the world has ever demonstrated that kind of love and humility and carried it through with power and authority. Isn’t such a God worth getting to know a little more about? Just because you have a bone to pick with his followers doesn’t reduce the magnitude of this fact. Imagine the President of the United States dying for you, just the save you from a sentence that you deserve. This is no mere president of some temporary country I’m talking about though. I’m talking about the King of the Universe. Chew on that for a while.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Jun 12, 2006 - 03:39pm PT
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I just puked...
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Jun 12, 2006 - 03:46pm PT
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LEB,
You’ve had two good responses to go with. To expand, there are categorically three ways to sin. One is defined above and by far the most difficult to apply to yourself since you don’t consciously desire to be evil. Hebrew is a very figurative language, distilled from examples and experiential analogies. Sin translated from Hebrew simply means to miss the mark, like firing an arrow and missing the target. The other two are iniquity which means to live by one’s own ways (i.e. rebelliousness) and transgression with means to cross a line (i.e. break a known law). Have you ever failed to live for God’s glory even for a moment, or been rebellious or broken a law? Surely if you’ve never done any of these then you don’t need a savior. But if you have, indeed a savior is required. Yes you must pay for your shortcomings and the sentence is death. And not just on earth but also in heaven. Is that what you want?
So how does Jesus pay? There exists no promise that the truth will be simple to understand. This is as simple as I can make it. The penalty for failing to live for the glory of God is death. But the gift offered by the Father is eternal life through the Son.
Why does he offer this gift?
“For the father so loved the world that he sent his one and only son; so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.”
The son said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.”
Even most believers don’t understand why the Son's blood is so important. That’s where the complex explanation comes into play. There is a logical explanation (as with the questions in the top 10 list) but it requires a good understanding of scripture. The bits are found in the Old Testament primarily in the Torah and tied together in the New Testament mostly in Romans, Hebrews and also in the Gospels (most notably John’s as MikeL astutely pointed out).
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Jun 12, 2006 - 03:47pm PT
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maybe you'll feel better tomorrow
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jun 12, 2006 - 03:50pm PT
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Lois,
Thank you for your well-reasoned questions. They are ones I struggled with for a long time, and are darn hard to answer!
If I am basically a decent person who [for the most part] looks out for the best interests of my fellow man, if I live a [pretty] good life, isn't that enough? And why should I have to be accountable to some "god" - isn't being accountable to my fellow man for my deeds and misdeeds sufficient? Karma and all that, right? What goes around comes around? I think that all this is true in the worldly sense!
Unless you have spent considerable time in church and read the bible a fair bit, it is sometimes difficult to understand the true nature of God. He is very cool, but sometimes he seems very strange, and often contradictory.
In the form of Jesus, God is very loving and giving of himself. While non-Believers could argue about Jesus' identity and theology [Jesus actually claimed to BE God, which could make him a liar or lunatic] few would argue against Jesus' demonstration of love for his fellow man. While Jesus' number one teaching is to love God first, his number two is to love your neighbour as yourself. The verb for 'love' he uses in Greek is 'agape' - that selfless love that puts the needs of the beloved ahead of the needs of oneself, it is the most selfless and volitional form of love.
But in the Old Testament, God can be a real bastard sometimes! How can this God of anger and retribution be the same one of love? Hard to fathom sometimes. Believe it or not, those crazy-sounding laws quoted above as written to Dr. Laura really are what God considers to be perfection, and breaking them is sin.
Hence I really like TGT's thoughts that sin is really the absence of perfection. There are various degrees of course, but the bottom line is that as humans we all fall short of the mark.
It's funny that I went to church most Sundays of my life, but didn't really "get" a lot of the stuff until I was about 31 when a catastrophic life-changing event forced me to evaluate a lot of stuff. It was only then that I discovered how short of the goal I had fallen, and how badly I needed God's love and help! I'd be dead without God, for sure. Guaranteed. He saved my sorry ass. God has this way of sending wake-up calls to us from time to time, it could happen today or it could have happened the day after New Year's last year: "Behold I stand at the door and knock, and if anyone hears my voice, they can let me in."
As for the substitutionary form of payment, I'll present a little parable. Have a read, and tell me what you think, and who the various people are.
A PARABLE
A woman is driving down the highway well over the speed limit, and runs through a radar trap. The cop pulls her over and says, "Madam, do you realize you were driving 30 miles over the speed limit! I have to write you a ticket!"
The woman doesn't seem too bothered when the cop hands her a ticket for $500. This is because her dad is a judge in traffic court! And she figures that because her dad loves her, he'll let her off the hook.
A few weeks later, the woman and the cop appear in traffic court before the judge, her dad. The cop presents his evidence, but the woman isn't concerned because she knows her dad will let her off. Well imagine her surprise and dismay when the judge brought his gavel down and declared, "Guilty! The fine shall be $500."
Well, the woman is heartbroken! Not only does she have to pay the price of the ticket because she broke the law, but her dad of all people appeared to have double-crossed her.
But what happened next surprised her even more. The judge got down off his seat, took off his judge's robe and hung it on the back of the chair, walked down to the bailiff, reached into his pocket and pulled out his wallet, and then the judge handed the bailiff the $500 to pay the fine. Justice was served. Or was it?
If you "get" the parable, please explain the Christian analogy.
Cheers,
Pete
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