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Biggy Blort
Social climber
Bosnia
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May 27, 2003 - 10:45am PT
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Karl,
Something tells me that Southern Man was cracking a joke?
i could be wrong, but....
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 27, 2003 - 10:46am PT
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vernon said... "Since Daniela was brought up, did she climb this? Way told me that she was winched up."
That's the word I heard as well... but, for the record I read it for the articles.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 27, 2003 - 03:15pm PT
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Poop*...LOL. I've always hated that picture. One day I was grousing about how stupid it was to have a chalked up bolted crack on the cover of the guide for a place with so many awesome natural adventures. Couldn't they have found a nice girly shot that didn't show off one of the Valley's biggest ethical anomalies (or abominations depending on your perspective)? I hadn't even heard the winching story yet when I remarked that I found it hard to believe that a woman that squishy looking and in such a coiffed and relaxed state at the bolt had just climbed 5.12. (I've heard about the winching...I guess the tactics fit the route.)
My retrobolt gripe of the weekend...Someone (who we believe is someone who claims to be the bad-assest of the bad-ass climbers) put a route up on Middle Cathedral that intersects the lower pitches of Paradise Lost. The run-outs on these lower pitches of PL now have a couple of brand new bolts along with a fixed pin and a couple of number 2 fixed heads. Ray Jardine did it without the bolts in 1972. Hmmm?
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Biggy Blort
Social climber
Bosnia
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May 27, 2003 - 04:32pm PT
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That new route on Middle Cathedral deserves the chop
History lesson time; the bold run-outs on PL courtesy of one Rik Reider. He was the boldest and baddest and how did JElvis put it? "would have changed the face of climbing" had he a few more years to ply his craft. ...alas...
And WHO is this new wave baddest ? DP? or....
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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May 27, 2003 - 05:04pm PT
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I wonder if that's the route I saw being drilled last November. My partner and I were on Central Pillar of Frenzy. The only other person on all of Middle Cathedral was a guy bolting off to our right quite a few hundred feet.
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bigwalling
climber
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May 27, 2003 - 07:18pm PT
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"Post Kurt's email here and soon he'll have to decide which ment product to use his herbal viagra with!"
Oh god, that is too funny!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 27, 2003 - 10:46pm PT
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Thanks for taking Kurt's email address off the forum. It was edited quick enough that I'm sure there's no harm done.
I'd be interested in knowing about the new route by Paradise Lost.
I did Paradise Lost last year and enjoyed it. Thank god it wasn't harder because it's no sport route. I've done lots of these Cathedral Routes like Stoner's, DNB, North Butt, Bircheff, Ho Chi Mihn, Quicksilver, Freewheelin and so on. Logged a couple 35 footers and some other good whips.
It does kinda make me sad that there isn't a moderate face route with decent pro for the average climber on that rock. You see people waiting around for hours to do Central Pillar and East Butt when there is so much good climbing nearby.
I'm not advocating retrobolting (although I've talked to two first ascent parties who were considering going back and adding bolts to their old lines. They said they were just poor and in a hurry when they established the routes and wished more folks could enjoy them.) But if somebody put up a new line by PL, I'm not going worked up over it. If the FA guys want to go back and spruce up their old work, that's fine with me too.
Peace
karl
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alasdair
Trad climber
scotland
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May 28, 2003 - 05:07am PT
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How are all those routes they look excellent. Is there gear between the bolts? Is it worth bringing a peg hammer or something? Is it worth carrying a large selection of small stoppers/offsets/rps etc?
alasdair
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arockclimber
Trad climber
The Adirondacks
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May 28, 2003 - 09:01am PT
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A example of "If you don't like the bolts, don't clip them"...
Two or three years ago my buddy and I belayed Rodman on the Monster. Impressive as hell to watch him send using Offset nuts and Aliens for gear. Not well protected, and hard climbing! The only bolts he clipped were on the anchor, a PROUD send if I've ever seen one!
On the other hand, I kind of like the fact that I can work the thing when I go to the Valley and "whip at will". I'm not a hardman like Rodman, so the bolts give me a chance to climb a amazing line! (I'd never try to lead the thing on gear, the climbing is too hard and the gear is not so good.) So if Kurt and Scott don't have any problem with the bolts.....
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 28, 2003 - 01:36pm PT
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Karl...I'd love to see more moderate routes, but I don't htink that Stoners, PL, DNB, or any of these historical routes should become clip-ups to provide me with that experience. If one were a strong enough climber to do these routes if they had better pro, then that person should have no problem finding both classic and obscure routes to hone their skills on in the Valley. Don't you think that the lines at CPofF and EBofM are partly the result of a herd mentality and not a simple lack of routes? Other alternatives for mortals include Kor Beck and North But of Middle which get way less traffic. Pee-Pee Pillar and the first pitch of PL are other goodies. Trot up the hill, and you have Braille Book, NE But of Higher, and several climbs on the Spires. For reasonably bolted face routes...trot over to the Middle Cathedral Apron.
Although I doubt I'll ever have what it takes to lead the runouts on PL, this person chose to put a two bolt anchor right in the middle of a PL pitch (not off to the side). They also put an ugly green bolt where there is run out but a really bomber hold if you take a second to feel around up high. The put fixed heads inches away from a fixed pin. Their route only overlaps with the second and part of the third pitch of PL, so it doesn't really do anything to make the climb more accessible to anyone. The result of their handiwork is a route that becomes 5.11 up higher, is still too difficult and run-out for the average person standing in line at the base of CPofF, and botches the respect for ethic bolting only at the otherwise unprotectable cruxes that the PL party was observing when they climbed the route in crappy boots a year before I was even born.
"Don't clip the bolt" is a nice sentiment. J didn't clip the added lead bolt. How can you ignore and anchor dressed in a wad of bail sling 30 feet into a pitch though?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 28, 2003 - 01:49pm PT
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Back to the original topic...
COILER,
A person who "admires all that you have to say" told me to ask you to post a picture of the cover to your Reid guide.
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 28, 2003 - 02:36pm PT
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 28, 2003 - 02:47pm PT
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Thanks.
Word has it that Coilers is extra special though.
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rbreedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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May 28, 2003 - 03:34pm PT
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At the risk of sounding like an old-know-it-all, I can fill in a historical perspective on bolts on Middle.
In the early 1970s there was a strong ethic from the late 1960s that you should not use bolts. There was also a new ethic forming that said that bolts were better than pins if you could not get in a nut.
Right in the middle of this changing ethic, a small group of mostly dedicated free climbers--it's the same names in differnet combinations that have most of the first ascents in those early days--started putting up lines on Middle where there were no cracks for protection.
The reason that those routes have long run outs is because that was part of the deal: those route were some of the first "acceptable" bolting in the Valley after the bolt wars and right as bolts became part of the clean climbing ethic. That acceptablity came at the price that the route had to be good and at the price of accepting "standard death falls".
Although it may no longer matter, it seems to me that a piece of that history, which probably led to sport routes 20 years later, is being lost if the NE face and the Apron are filling up with
hangers.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 28, 2003 - 09:45pm PT
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Sorry to hear that the new line by Paradise lost is a botch job. Some Lines interscet a bit up on the Middle Cathedral Apron without too much trouble.
I was just there today, on Quicksilver, since it was shady. God that climb is as horrifying as 5.9 gets. Even Paradise Lost seemed more "there"
Somebody asked about the lesser know Middle routes.
Bircheff-Williams is technically harder than many but better protected than most. Good route.
Space Babble to the left of B-W (I've only toproped space Babble after climbing Kor Beck) Total death route, but some of the best 5.9 face in the valley. Not even safe to rap because of some bad anchors. Years ago Kauk talked about adding some bolts (it's his route) but I'm sure he didn't get around to it. (not to make it a clip up but there are pitches with no pro)
Stoners is technical and medium run-out. Up higher there is tough route finding with some bigger runouts. Great route though.It's got newly replaced bolts on it.
Paradise lost is far easier than the above but runouts are more severe and some bolts haven't been replaced. (what few there are)
Ho Chi Mihn Trail takes of after the scary face pitches of the DNB. Not as many grunt sections but harder than the DNB. The 10c OW is pretty light for the grade so fear not. (I led it, how bad could it be?)
Quicksilver and FreeWheeling take very good route finding skills and scare me! I took a 35 footer on Freewheeling on a 10b pitch years ago. I went back to face that pitch years later and the bolt that caught my fall was completely missing, so I bailed. I hear they have both been rebolted except for the last pitch.
I don't like the North Buttress. It's not as easy as the topo suggests and the crux pitch is wierd. The chimney above the crux pitch runs with water in the spring.
For the face climbing routes on middle I recommend RPs, Offsets, Aliens and for god sakes Screamers! Don't bring a hammer, in my opinion.
Peace
Karl
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 28, 2003 - 10:25pm PT
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 29, 2003 - 01:44pm PT
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"If you haven't led a given route then opinions about the lead climbing protection don't seem relevant."
Were you strictly talking about Cookie Monster?
Did you mean with the exception of certain routes that have larger traverses where a bolt protects the crux move for the leader only? PL is one of these routes, but the offending bolts end up impacting the leader much more in this case. (They are placed in a vertical former run-out and before a traverse.)
[rant]
Even if I haven't lead a route, I want to protect the climbs that I aspire to be able to do. I also want to protect the character of an area that I love.
If climbing on Middle was strictly about good pro, then Middle would have given us 50 CPofF's. Instead she gave us wandering face features that are not easily protected without the use of either great caution and skill or bolts. Although the FA's favored the former, enough bolts were used to make these routes hair raising, but not death routes.
Also, it would seem really aestheticly bizzare to me to have bolts on the wandering features that require lots of ziggy zaggy up and down climbing and traversing. The character just isn't that of a sport route. I wouldn't want to contrive sport-style climbs the peice of rock that offer the most and longest commiting yet moderate traditional free climbs in Yosemite.
Perhaps waiting in line at CPofF is part of the price of admission for getting on the more committing stuff where you get to be alone most of the day? I get so frustrated with being stuck in that line sometimes that it makes me shout, cry, or behave in other unproductive, self-depricating ways. Still, I'd rather work my way up to the trick stuff and earn my place there with both tecnique and self-confidence than have someone serve it up to me on a platter.
As someone who would be a good candidate to use better protection as training wheels to compensate for my lack of time and probably talent learning the skills, I really feel that the place for lowering the bar with copious bolts to accommodate me is at the _crags_ on _new lines_ and not on or even squeezed by classic and subtle Grade IV face climbs.
I am also of the mind that the statement that the FA made when they put up the route is often far more interesting than what they have to say about it 20 years after the fact, especially when they no longer have the mettle to make the original statement of bold action.
[/rant]
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 29, 2003 - 06:51pm PT
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I think you're making a lot of assumptions if you say that if a first ascender goes back and adds a few (not a big line) of bolts to his or her old route that it means they don't have the mettle to do it anymore.
The folks I know who put up some of those routes are climbing 5.13 and 5.14 in their forties. Perhaps their perspective changed with time. Perhap they had to turn in cans to buy bolts in those days and wanted to cruise their FA in a day rather than establishing a work that could be enjoyed by serious climbers instead of just nobody.
The idea that sort-of moderate super run out climbs must wait for the elite to come enjoy them with their large cahones is often a fantasy. Space Babble, for instance, is a great climb. When I top-roped it on rappel, I could tear the one inch webbing at the anchors in half with my bare hands! Perhaps the folks who get good enough to basically solo whole pitches of 5.9 and 10a feel like climbing other stuff instead.
This isn't meant to be a statement to advocate retobolting. I think routes should be maintained in a style that takes into account the desires of the first ascent party but also in keeping with the consensus ethics of the area.
But to state that regardless of the first ascent party's wishes, that routes should be maintained in their original state in case you feel like leading them at some future time seems selfish and elitist to me. It's the tax cut to the rich. Everybody else should suffer so that the most worthy can have it their way.
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 29, 2003 - 07:07pm PT
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Karl, if this were a discussion about a one bolt for lead pro or free solo of a 5.8's in Tuolumne by a 5.13 climber, I'd be more in your camp. If you are capable of leading 5.11 in good style (Space Babble) or even 10c (Peices of Eight) even with sporto-style bolts, you could spend 3 lifetimes climbing in Yosemite without running out of decent, reasonably protected routes to do.
"that routes should be maintained in their original state in case you feel like leading them at some future time seems selfish and elitist to me. It's the tax cut to the rich. Everybody else should suffer so that the most worthy can have it their way."
If J is elite, it's because he's put in the time. Part of that time has included maintaining the hardware on more moderate routes for gumbies like me. An even bigger part of that time has included being a gumby himself and getting scared shitless over and over, having epic after epic on the moderate stuff. It's not as though he were born into the ability to climb a 10c with runouts the way people are born into money. If he started reporting FA solos of 5.6's then he'd be being elitist, IMO.
I would say and so would J that preserving certain routes as something to aspire to makes those that are truly dedicated to their climbing better climbers. Those who don't want to do the work or who through some combination of external obligations and/or lack of talent or courage are incapbale of attaining these difficult goals will still be able to go climb any number of socialized offerings generaly established and maintained (both physicically and financially) by the elitists who aspire to the bolder routes.
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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May 29, 2003 - 07:15pm PT
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It seems to me that to go back and add bolts to a climb way after the fact is just to open a huge can of worms.
It's one thing when Roper goes and adds pins to Snakedike on the 2nd ascent (w/ the permission of the FA team), but to add bolts much much later seems to me to be taking the climb in its own historical context and somehow rejecting it.
Ironicly, the problems I see are in some ways equivalent to changing the grade of a climb down the road (which many folks here didn't seem to mind).
But for me, here is the crux:
The climb exists- it is already a climb- it goes just like it is.
So what if more people would lead it, were it only safer?
I would lead the nose if only it were easier, but you don't see me headed to the great roof w/ my drill and chisel set.
You are still talking about changing an existing climb to make it more to your liking...
"Warning!
This file already exists!
Do you want to replace the existing file?
Are you sure?"
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