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DavisGunkie
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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May 25, 2006 - 12:36pm PT
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yea but how many climbers being guided up everest do you think were actually capable of initiating a rescue? 1:10, probably less.
its a slippery slope. one of the main rules of wilderness rescue/first aid is assessing the situation and making sure that by helping someone else you are not putting yourself in danger.
Yes it seems like continuning on to the summit seemed selfish and unhumane, but i think it would risk their own lives and the live of the brit had they tried to help doing so unqualified and with out hte right gear.
plus its easy to say oh i would do this or that until you have paid the 65K to go up everest plus time invested.
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MikeL
climber
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May 25, 2006 - 12:41pm PT
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Lots of analytical, post hoc rationality going on here: size of party, role of guides, problems due to elevation, investments (time, talent, money), etc.
Here is where rationality comes up against the more human sides of us: our emotion, spirituality, compassion, etc. When you see what people bow to, then you know what rules their world.
Here’s an idea. If you’ve personally been in one of these situations, then you could tell us your story. Then we can see the type of person you are under pressure, for it is then that real character comes out and when real decisions are made. Decisions made with almost no significant trade-offs are not really decisions at all.
If you’ve not been in one of these decisions, then it’s all theoretical, isn’t it?
MikeL
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Nor. CA
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May 25, 2006 - 01:06pm PT
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As I understand it, this guy was headed up on a solo attempt. Maybe I'm different, but when I head out backpacking, or climbing solo I assume total responsibility for whatever happens to me. I expect no one to go out of their way to bail myself out. Even backpacking solo is ill advised, and I would expect to go to an extra nasty level of hell if someone got hurt or died bailing my sorry ass out. Would I be grateful if I was bailed out if the sh#t hit the fan? Hell yes! But my risky choice should not turn into other people's obligation.
I find it very worrysome that we have moved further and further away from a sense of personal responsibility. The more we do so, the more more we willingly give up our right to make decisions for ourselves.
We only have to look at things such as seatbelt laws to realize that our right to do dangerous things that do not endanger others is being eroded. Before long some distraught mother will pull at the country's heart strings and tried to ban climbing, or skydiving, or similar becuase her baby died too young.
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sling512
Trad climber
Chicago
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May 25, 2006 - 01:17pm PT
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Not to go OT, but Moof:
Are you saying seatbelt laws are a BAD thing? You would like the right to drive without a seatbelt and actually think you are not putting others lives at risk? That is a very ignorant statement.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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May 25, 2006 - 01:50pm PT
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Obviously, I have no experience that would remotely qualify me to make a statement about those people.
But, I do enjoy reading mountaineering stories. And having read several, one thing I have noticed is that the writers tell about how various mountains all seem to have some sort of distinct energy, or personanlity. One which slowly becomes more clear, as people attempt them and come back.
Everest doesn't seem to have a good history, energy-wise, since it opened up to those mass quantity(relatively speaking) expeditions. So much sadness, selfishness, blame and denial, on that mountain.
Peple do die on mountians, and on much smaller ones than Everest. The difference, I wonder, might be that it is a more private affair, in most cases. But on Everest, there is "the route," the "season," and the (summit bid)"windows" that so many clamour through at once.
Sometimes I think I would like to see the Khumba Ice Falls. And I think what an amazing thing it must be, to be on the Hillary Step. For some reason, that seems, to me, to be more spectacular than the idea of the summit. But, I know I'll never do it - it's hard enough for me to do what I am capable of, and I don't delude myself otherwise. But, when I read these stories, about the energy that is on the commercial expeditions to Everest.....I think it would be better to stay away.
I wish the best for all those who are dealing with this tragedy, and for the families and loved ones to find comfort.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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May 25, 2006 - 02:37pm PT
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Karl is right in that none of us were there, so we do not understand the situation. I cannot condemn those whose situation I am ignorant of.
However, bruce brings up an interesting hypothetical point. If you had payed all of that money and sacrificed to reach the summit would you give it up? I would resoundingly say yes. There are those who go through life with only the objective in mind and not caring how they get there, and there are those that understand that it is not the objective, but how you got there.
If I had two choices to reflect on, summitting Everest knowing I stepped over a dying person,
or not summitting but knowing I attempted to save someone, I know which one would provide me with better thoughts as I grew old.
Ron is probably right though, there may have been very little that anyone could have done but that does not mean "carry onward" either...
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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May 25, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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I'll say it again, the only people who know what the real story are the players involved. And that includes the person who died.
I haven't climbed Everest, but I've been high enough to know that I don't operate as well up in the clouds as I do at sea level. I lost two very good friends on Everest, Rob Hall and Andy Harris both guiding clients at the time. People who guide Everest will tell you that they are really only showing you the way, providing logistics, camps, etc, etc. The guides themselves, are doing their best to keep it together and look after themselves. There is only so much they can do. The margin of safety of so thin, that you only need a small hiccup and sh#t hits the fan.
Before we attack the people involved, lets remember that climbing at 8000m is a lot different from sitting in your cube and hitting out a reply on the keyboard and give the people so time to explain what happened.
Here is the latest from the newspapers back home: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3680102a11,00.html
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fareastclimber
Trad climber
Hong Kong & Wales
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May 25, 2006 - 02:50pm PT
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To the few that chose to stay with the man and forgoe their own climb, are much more commendable than those who turned and walked away to stand on the summit.
But, saying that, for those who did carry on and passed the man, I'm not going to question their actions, for I did not truly know the circumstances of the situation...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 25, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
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Hey look if it was just the 65K then the abandonment would be merciless and cold but when that high up there if a person can't even move a little bit to help out a rescue/evacuation would only place others in jeopardy.
The thing that bugs me is that there is a business of accomodating people who have never even climbed to a 6000m summit. I'm NOT saying that Everest shouldn't be guided. I AM saying that it shouldn't be outright bought.
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Conrad
climber
MT
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May 25, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
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Ten years after the tradegy of '96 and Chomolungma has proven to be a very serious undertaking once again. The web sites report 15 fatalities so far - from working Sherpas (Phinjo - a fellow I worked with in '99 and climbed ice with in January - edit - Lincoln is doing well and this post was pulled from the internet - apologies and kudos for Lincoln for being stong and fellow climbers helping him out) in the ice fall to seasoned climbers (Lincoln Hall made it 8350 on the White Limbo Route sans gas post monsoon in 84). As much as the big E gets bagged on for being an easy climb, one must keep in mind that life is not meant to exist at an altitude above 7000 metres (23 K feet). One is dying a slow death and it is a race aginst time with training, motivation and equipment providing a counter to the grim reality.
This thread revolves around climbing the north side which is not too difficult untill the summit day. The climb traverses more than it rises and has three cliffs of steep, loose rock. It is a commiting day with a real need for self sufficiency. This being said if one is no longer ambulatory above the Second Step the chances of your team mates or other climbers effecting a rescue is very slim. To my knowledge there have been no rescues of non-walking people above this passage. Lowering in a fall line is one thing, lowering on a traverse is near impossible.
Not knowing the specifics such as location and time of day it is hard to comment. It is also hard to make a call exactly what the climber in question was thinking. Thinking, for that matter, is not a fully functioning process at that altitude. My point in this post is that name calling and second guessing is best left out. Think about what you would do. Having participated in three high altitude rescues (Denali, Everest and Khan Tengri) these moments are far more woven in my psyche than standing on a summit. The charge of helping out a stricken climber, for me, is far greater than the lure of a summit.
In the big picture climbing is, at the end of the day,a frivilous pursuit. We are not farming, creating vaccines or adding to the general good. We climb because we like adventure.
With empathy to the familes of the fallen climbers and a stack of respect for the Sherpas - these humble folk make it all possible for the Everest climbers and do it for about 14 dollars a day.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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May 25, 2006 - 03:59pm PT
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I was hoping you would read this and comment Conrad. I thought about you as I read these Everest accounts. You have travelled a wee bit since those times 20 years ago in BCC and LCC.
Gary Olsen
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Machine
Sport climber
the basement
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May 25, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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Many of these comments make me sick to my stomach. There is no time, ever, when it is a better decision to climb to the summit if someone is lying a long the side dying. There are comments about "we don't know what happened". Well, we do know that people pushed to go higher. That's enough for me. Another human life is far more precious than personal goals, time and money.
True, it may be dangerous or have a low chance of success but you have to try.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 25, 2006 - 04:28pm PT
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Go get him, machine.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Nor. CA
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May 25, 2006 - 04:30pm PT
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"Are you saying seatbelt laws are a BAD thing? You would like the right to drive without a seatbelt and actually think you are not putting others lives at risk? That is a very ignorant statement."
I'm not saying they are a bad thing, but they go in a direction I do not like. The powers that be telling me what risks I can and cannot take. The same logic and argument can be applied to the food I eat, why not outlaw french fries? Why not put speed governors on all cars to limit them to 75 mph. Why not make it illegal to climb without a helmet, or free solo, or establish a route that is not bolted every 3'. "It saves lives" is a BS justification for a law by itself.
Please explain to me how me not wearing my seatbelt is putting others in danger?
My point is that if you go up Everest, there is a good chance you'll die. Do it solo, and your chances are worse. Who's responsible when you die? You are. Other climbers didn't make you go up there. Society didn't tell you to go.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 25, 2006 - 04:38pm PT
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I very much appreciate the comments and perspectives of those of you who have been there and can speak from first hand experience.
I do, however, wonder how much of what goes on in the region is alpinism and how much is high-stakes tourism. How much is dependent on sherpa-staged fixed ropes and gas? Whatever the percentage of folks engaged in the latter, as either consumers or providers, it appears to be a business of sheparding folks who lack the requisite skills and experience to the top and back. True state-of-the-effort alpinism seems risky enough (as we've seen of late) - engaging in expedition-scale tourism at altitude seems riskier still for all concerned simply by definition. That said, it is also voluntarily pursued by all parties. But for me personally there are no shortage of ethical questions around why all these folks are on the mountain at all without getting into their heads as they passed a fallen and dying brother.
Also, I've always felt the Sherpas [as a community] were and are the only enduring heros of Everest and always have been - we are all tourists of one stripe or another compared to their lives, culture, and history in the region. I find it no small irony that those who live with Everest and are in many ways the most capable of climbing it have always been [historically] the least interested in the prospect and the various rationales for it.
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jager
climber
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May 25, 2006 - 04:47pm PT
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Here is one thing I would like to ask the people like Machine...Please go find out the specifics and let us know EXACTLY how you would proceed with rescuing this poor soul 1,000 feet from the summit, in ~-100 weather, etc. I'll bet you a large amount of money that you would come to the same conclusion the climbers who saw him came to and did. Which is all they could do is give him some oxygen, since he only took TWO bottles with him on his bid, and try to get him on his feet.
I'm waiting...
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Machine
Sport climber
the basement
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May 25, 2006 - 05:01pm PT
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one person, maybe. 40 people have a better chance of getting a climber down. That to me isn't the main point though. The point is walking past that person to reach a goal. At least pull them down as far as you can until you reach the end of your time limit. Then the next person can help.... Don't pass them though.
It's dangerous, but that would be one of the inherent risks with climbing the mountain.
I'm not army, but army rangers don't leave anyone behind, even if they are under fire. I wish that mind set existed in the rest of us.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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May 25, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
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About 36,000 people a year die in this country from the "flu." There is no public outrage. It's not even reported in the media every day that 800 people died today because of the flu.
If it was at all possible to help the stricken climber, people would have. But sometimes the reality of the situation isn't pretty but you have to live with it. How do you think the people who couldn't help are feeling right now?
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Machine
Sport climber
the basement
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May 25, 2006 - 05:51pm PT
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so - we shouldn't try to help people with the flu? Yes people die, but if you're there why can't you help out?
I bet most of them feel terrible. I feel really bad for those who do. I really don't harbor hate or disgust. I do think it's wrong though.
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MikeL
climber
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May 25, 2006 - 05:54pm PT
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One writer above said:
“. . . the only people who know what the real story are the players involved.”
This is not a hands-down principle that we should employ blindly (e.g., Iraq, immigration, etc.). This is a red herring, and it avoids the issue.
The writer also says:
” The guides themselves, are doing their best to keep it together and look after themselves. There is only so much they can do. The margin of safety of so thin, that you only need a small hiccup and sh#t hits the fan.”
If the margins of safety are that thin, then maybe people shouldn’t be taking groups of 40 into death zones. In fact, maybe the thing shouldn’t be done it at all. (“Yeah, but, if not them, then others will do it!” I know, I know.)
I appreciate these perspectives, especially since the writer indicates losing friends to the mountains. For that I am very sympathetic.
I continue to think that character is revealed by the decisions people make under severe pressure. What people bow to tells us what they are. You don’t have to be an existentialist to see that. You can experience any good movie, novel, or play and see that in the protagonists. Many times it doesn't go well for the protagonists.
MikeL
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