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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
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Well, Kludge, you could ask him directly...but where is the fun in that, eh?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 22, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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Wild Rose.... a tiny crag just below South Lake in Bishop Creek drainage, 4 good cracks, all done by Big Al Bartlett back in the 70's.
More than 4 good cracks, some done by Kevin Leary & Bob Harrington (also in the '70s), then more later, and there was a bolted rap anchor on top of one of the middle cracks first time I went there around 2000 or so. We also put up two 5.10 face routes with bolts & gear in 2005, and then there's another new route way around right with a bolted anchor.
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The Dude
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 22, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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Devil's Lake, Wisconsin? I think there are only a handful of old 1/4 inchers and about 1000+ routes.
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Jane Gallwey
Big Wall climber
Ireland
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Sep 22, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
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As to the abroad question, Fairhead in Northern Ireland. Has 366 routes. Maybe 3 miles long by 300ft high. No bolts.
Incidentally an amazing place to visit if you're ever in the area http://www.fairheadclimbers.com/home.htm
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Rudyj2
Trad climber
UT
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Sep 22, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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That does it.....I have got to check out Devils Lake some day.
As for the Recess in the Uintas; only about 20+ routes in that area and over the last few years at least 1 bolted anchor, and 1 fixed piton has appeared. Also a few people calling out for more bolted anchors in the area on Mt Proj.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 22, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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Some places lend themselfs to natural gear and some do not. I generaly get a bit miffed when some holyer than thou elitest traddie from an area with an abundance of natural gear puts the scorn on a bolted face climbing area that would have very few routs without bolts.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 22, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
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I know it's bolts that have ruined Climbing almost the world around. We have got to search for those holdouts that are purely bolt free and analyze why they are bolt free while making our comparisons to sport climbing. And such a search begs the question: bolts = calamity so can we quantify the number of pitches to grade the pureness...
...beneath every query can be some hidden feelings and or motives and if we simply address what on simple face value may ring as simple question we would be selling our intuition short.
What possess the question ask-er to ask such a question as the forum topic?
In other words, you hear stuff and make up your own explanations for it, using your x-ray "intuition," which must not on any account be "sold short," to discover hidden feelings and motivations that the people involved are unaware of and do not actually subscribe to. Then you go on to win an argument with yourself, which makes for a comfy day.
If you look at the thread, it was Ghost who started in on the comparisons you seem to think are only made by trad climbers who are out to denigrate their sport-climbing brethren.
cfrac asked a simple question. In this day and age, a cliff like Millbrook is an interesting phenomenon. Whether you think it is a good thing or a bad thing or there is some hidden agenda about even asking about it is beside the point.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 22, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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Look at the title of the thread. ZERO capatalized like that? If you can't read between those lines you might be getting a bit feeble in the thinker;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 22, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
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A significant cliff with zero bolts pretty much fits into the following catagorys.
A. It has an abundance of gear protected climbs.
B. It has an abundance of never repeted or seldom repeted climbs.
C. It has an abundance of unclimbed lines.
D. It's a chosspile.
E. The climbing is too hard for the locals.
F. The cliff has access issues.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Sep 22, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath beat me to it: The Overlook at the top of Oak Creek Canyon. Although not technically within your high standards - it only has 80 routes, but is very close to the road, popular and has a lot of moderates.
And no bolts.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
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Sep 22, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
A significant cliff with zero bolts pretty much fits into the following catagorys.
A. It has an abundance of gear protected climbs.
B. It has an abundance of never repeted or seldom repeted climbs.
C. It has an abundance of unclimbed lines.
D. It's a chosspile.
E. The climbing is too hard for the locals.
F. The cliff has access issues.
Gotta say, over the years of reading your posts I've always been confused as to why you don't call yourself 'sportmanclimbs'...
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MisterE
Social climber
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Sep 22, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
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The off-topic marmot is definitely under a nearby (pet) rock on this thread...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 22, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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The tower is not ruined. It has an abundance of gear protected climbs. I like the fact that you are commited to topping out.
Joe. I am a climber. I am not stuck in some silly catagory. I like trad, sport,aid, alpine and ice. What part of my list did you find offensive?
If it has no bolts and a bunch of climbs then it has a bunch of gear protected climbs. If it has climbs but no gear chances are they do not get climbed very often if at all. If it has a bunch of great looking lines with no gear and no bolts then it needs someone with the time, energy and ability to put up some bolted routes. it ain't rocket science. Ya, I'm just a sport climber......
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Michelle
Trad climber
the f*#king peninsula.
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Sep 22, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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Yes, I know of a couple.
apogee is right. Top secret.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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To this day I know the Tower is ruined by some dick heads standards. But any group that raises up against bull-shit "ethics" and does what they want when they are the users has my praise. I guess strip miners, trawlers and loggers of old growth forest are to be praised then. Kudos to them for failing to see discretion or restraint or concern or longevity.
If you are so concerned about the lack of trad climbers' ethics, you wouldn't be trying so hard to defend the sportclimber's lack thereof.
Back to the original topic, it's interesting that in the UK one could name many crags without bolts (i.e., virtually any grit crag one could name). It's somewhat ironic, and sad, that as the co-proponents of clean climbing, there are not more American crags that share that character. I believe the type of rock and nature of the crags played a role in that evolution, but it is somehwat disappointing there aren't more crags like Millbrook in the U.S.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
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To this day I know the Tower is ruined by some dick heads standards. But any group that raises up against bull-shit "ethics" and does what they want when they are the users has my praise.
They have my vote. God forbid there remains a twelve square foot expanse of rock without four bolts in it.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
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Stoney Point almost works. Just 1 bolted aid line, and maybe 20 bolts for anchors at the top of some routes.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
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Joe. I am a climber. I am not stuck in some silly catagory. I like trad, sport,aid, alpine and ice. What part of my list did you find offensive?
Your posts over the years have had a consistent pro-bolts sport lean and you constantly espouse opinions that are anything but 'trad'. 'Tradmanclimbs' at best misrepresents your opinions.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 23, 2012 - 07:31am PT
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Joe. If you have bunch of rock that has little or no gear gear and you want to climb what are you gonna do. I ain't no drunken britt who thinks it's sporty to get a broken ankle every time I go climbing and my cliffs are a whole lot bigger than 10 meters. If it has Good gear placements then I am all for climbing on gear. If it has great climbing but no gear then I am all for firing in a bolt. The smallest minds in the climbing world are the ones who are rabidly anti bolt. Without bolts El Cap remains unclimbed. Most of those great spire climbs in the Black Hills remain unclimbed and many of the great classics in North Conway cease to exist. Etc, Etc, Etc...
There are times when bolting is a travesty and a few who should have their drills confiscated yet for the most part bolts have been a huge possitive contribution to climbing. No everyone is blessed with haveing a Gunks, Devils Tower, Seneca, Cannon etc gear protected cliff in their back yard.. So yes someone who is rabidly anti bolt and has easy access to abundant gear protected climbing is a small minded selfish little prick INMOP.
Tradman doing some REAL Trad climbing ;)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2012 - 07:40am PT
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...yet for the most part bolts have been a huge possitive contribution to climbing.
If turning climbing into just another risk-free, pop-suburban, entertainment option then sure - hugely positive, if you're in need of alternatives to going to the mall.
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