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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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Ha! Some (unrelated) good news! When I went out back to get the ladder to reprint the exterior wall I noticed that the weird aluminum telescoping pole thing I almost took to the scrapper a couple weeks back was actually a really nice 10' painter's pole! The painting job I expected to take several sucky hours up and down the ladder ended up only taking 30 minutes from the ground! Woo-hoo!!!
Unfortunately this means I'm back on the floor joist project now...
Let's see what other details i've left out...
1. It's not that I *can't* move the pipes, it's just that getting this system drained is a major PITA and given it's age I'm not so sure the fittings in the radiator will come out cleanly to allow repositioning the pipes. Plus I suspect the damage is really old and predates the current pipes (everything's dry and the system's been full almost a year with no additional water needed), so would prefer not opening another can of worms. I suppose I could turn on the heat and check for leaks... Probably a good idea. Will do that first thing tomorrow. But in the meantime, moving them would mean moving the riser to the upstairs, which wouldn't be quick or easy.
2. Assuming I cut out the joist and scab in a new one (with supports on either end), how does the floor get attached to it? I assume toe nail (probably the wrong term) from underneath? There isn't really a subfloor per se; there's the original wide plank direct on the joists, followed by 1890's-1910's strip on top of that. Most of the original wide plank in that corner is still solid, so nailing upwards on an angle should find something to bite into.
3. No chance whatsoever at getting to the other side of the foundation. The walls are ~21" thick mortared stone, and the foundation is something more than that and goes down at least 6 feet. Plus that wall has a cement porch in front of it, and that slab is easily 6" thick. On a side note, I once did a ballpark calculation for the weight of the house and came up with something like 3-400 tons. Just for the exterior walls.
4. Wege's epoxy is out, as my method of testing soundness was hitting the joist with a hammer and large chunks fell away. Side note- chunks were bone dry and turned to dust, hence thinking there's no longer a leak. The temporary support is actually sitting on pieces of concrete... The brown stuff if what fell off the joist when the hammer went through it. No evidence of termites either, btw. A couple very unhappy plants that rooted through the foundation and tried to sprout, though.
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGczXkknl80
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 10, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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This is what I would do.
1. Figure out how to move the pipe just an inch or two away from the wall.
Can't be that tough.
2. Cut the old guy a safe distance past the rotten section at a 3 to 1 angle.
I would make the initial cut with a circular saw and then finish up with a
sawzall and/or hand saw.
3. Chisel the old piece bearing in mind the floor board nails are gonna
cause you grief.
4. Cut your new section and glue and wedge it in place with maybe a lag up
through the scarf joint.
5. Reinforce the scarf joint with a treated 2x with lots of glue and
rot-proof screws or nails.
6. Put a post under the scarf joint with a framing connector to the beam.
Easy peasy! ;-)
ps
I guess you can forget the post. It looked like there was room for a post
but I guess there isn't.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Sep 10, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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dude just lay neath your abode
and chew upon her skeleton;
swallow her splinters,
digest something beyond you,
excrete new understanding
and this mock enlightenment
you can stuff 'neath your self-sentenced cell
and that pile o' misunderstanding
will prolly prop you up
for another epoch or two.
here if you want,
you can borrow, i mean have, my shoe.
because tucker already strides mine other.
and he lives inna cave 'o stone that
jesus walked on by enroute to his tomb,
dumb f*#k!
we should be praying to tucker not to jesus.
no more wars.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
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Lost me on the 3:1 angle thing, Reilly.... Increasing area of the glue joint? And to be honest, there's a goodly chance I'll be removing the pipes for access, since chances are I'll clip them with a sawzall anyway, so way as well at least reduce the notch to a small one at top rather than the whole height of the joist. Plus then I can cut the joist at the middle of the house (where it happens to be supported and then sneak the new one into the alcove and shim as necessary. Liking that plan even though it means cutting into the pipes.
Btw, this is just the warmup act for the main event in the dining room....
Been working up the nerve to tackle this one for months, as it requires excavating that half of the basement (some joists are sitting on dirt, at leat 4 need outright replacement). Fortunately farming has fallen out of fashion around here (Philadelphia, PA), which means I can likely pick up an old hay/grain conveyor for a couple hundred bucks and put one end in the basement to avoid needing a bucket brigade.
Long story short: beautiful historic houses need upkeep, and the people we bough this from did nothing in the 60 years they owned it.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 10, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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Cut the rotten joist out and replace it. If it is set into stone, make two pieces and bolt them together with a steel plate that ends before you get to your pipe. I know that this sounds like lots of work, but all the complexity of trying to make a smaller repair, shore-up and work around what's there, and make room for the plumbing is more work and has much more uncertainty, in my opinion.
Just to tell the story, when I worked in Squaw Valley, a new lift was installed to the upper slopes (probably in 1971 or so). One of the towers on the top of a rock ridge was about 2 feet too short. I think it was about 50' high and set at a slight angle. I drove a crew of Swiss guys up there with a welder and generator. They secured the top of the tower with come-alongs anchored to trees and rocks set back about 150 feet or so. They scabbed steel buttresses about 6 feet high onto the tower's base plate with matching flanges welded to the tower above a cut line about 2 feet off the concrete. The welder cut the 24" diameter tower, and the engineering crew, using wenches attached to the top of the buttresses, jacked it up 2 feet. The welder fitted in a new section, and welded it together. Presto, the tower was two feet taller and the lift opened on time.
The hardest part in replacing your joist will probably be figuring out how to get direct force on the new joist to get it into place. It doesn't look like you can get directly under it. Using levers would work.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Sep 10, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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Werner's idea will cost less and work best.
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ELM !
climber
Near Boston
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Sep 10, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
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I feel your pain. I have replaced a joist just like yours but I could access it from both sides.
I jacked up the floor on a temporary joist and excavated out the old one. I then liberally placed epoxy and sledge hammered in a new pressure treated section.
To attach the flooring I pulled off the molding on the wall and nailed the flooring down there; with the molding on you never see the nails.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sep 10, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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I have a old commercial building/warehouse that is of massive timbers, and had the same problem with the joist. As suggested, either pour some concrete pads or place some premade ones for a base for the house jacks. Support your structure/floor load with the jacks, and cut the old joist away with a chainsaw. Then replace it and use old bridge or railroad ties for support, again cut with a chainsaw. Treated, burly and cheap. Nothing wrong with a little overkill.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
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All this talk blah blah blah
Now if all of us workers would be there right now with all our know how and tools we'd have that bitch shored up by now.
Either that or we'd all be still standing in front of the house arguing about how to do it as the sun sinks in the west.
:-)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 10, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
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I spent the last two years doing this stuff for a job. like everone else says. Dig some holes, poar pads, jack er up, sawzal the old crap out and get a new pressure treated joist in there w/ steep plate. Is LVL as resistant to rot? that stuff is real floppy so you would want to bolt a few of em together. I would just go with pressure treated.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny,sawdust does not work like chalk
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Sep 10, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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hello,im a 35 year carpenter,i would remove the exterior siding,freeze board,then replace the existing sill beam ,find someone to mill you the exact size beam,and replace at least a 8 foot section.knotch were you would like your pipe and mortar under the beam.it lasted like that this long, the repair will only out live the surrounding area by about our kids,kids.reside.
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spud
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
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When we bought our 1854 house we needed new first floor joists--along with many other needed repairs. Instead of showing off a new, fancy kitchen, I"d show off my new expensive floor joists! Ha ha!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 10, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
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So far everyone has ignored or brushed off the crux issue.
You have a leaking condensate return.
Gotta fix that first and identify if the issue is 60+ YO pipe that is getting ready to bust loose elsewhere.
If the pipe didn't leak, you wouldn't have to move it, or replace the joist.
Re-insulating the steam lines while you are at it, including the condensate returns would probably pay for itself in a year from reduced heating oil costs.
Beware of asbestos though on the old steam lines. Getting rid of that would be a fortune.
Fix the problem first then tackle the symptom.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny,sawdust does not work like chalk
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Sep 10, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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if the pipe is leaking or it is condensation,heat pipes sweat,fixing that first would be a given.carpentry issues ,same as above.the question was ,repairing an old floor joist
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 10, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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Heating lines don't "sweat", unless they are leaking steam or condensate.
Chilled water lines sweat all the time.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
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Grew up in a house built in 1820. Hand hewn beams with lathe and plaster. No insulation at all.
21" thick laid stone fascia is burly. They probably did not insulate at all figuring the stone was both insulation and air conditioning. If there are no cracks in the fascia their footing must be a whole lot better than the offset under the joist. Those look almost dry laid sand with a little lime. If you put a sister on that joist but leave it, the whole house studding and all, will be cantilevered on your floor boards. Their integrity has to be as questionable as that of your joist.
You say there is a bigger problem in the next room. I am assuming your joists are supported on beam and pillar or more stone walls. I would first get some room to work down there. Vactor makes super vacuum systems that can suck loosened dirt all the way out of the house. First discover how deep your offset goes down. Don't want to undermine that, crummy as it appears.
Lag bolt 4x6's six feet long with six foot gaps onto the bottom of the joist and drill a 1.5" hole through it so that a pipe put into the hole will bear on the 4x6 and on the next joist over. Do this all the way on that joist and jack it tight so the room floor is where you want it. Then cut out alternate 6' foot sections of your joist and back fill with a replacement. You might consider liquid nails on the top surface and then just shim it tight. After all the replacement sections are in, lag stud a sister onto it and pour a decent wall to support it. Easy concrete pumper job now that you have some room down there. Don't undermine the awful looking stone under the replacement joist. You can even leave a little dirt between the old and new footings. It will just be leaning into the footings for the 21" thick fascia. Observe the 45º rule for the new footing. Your's has to be the only house in Philly able to withstand a nuclear blast.
For the radiator replace the line with threaded pipe so that you can easily pull it out of the notch in the sister. Spring for a couple unions and you are good to go. Simple repair job.
You'd be surprised how fast a super shop vac will get that dirt moving. You could even route it through your wife's kitchen. She won't see any dust. Noise, yes. Dust, I doubt it. I have tunneled using Makita's largest electric hammer. Wonderful tool.
That's what I would do. Neat problem!
Until he lost the house by divorce a friend was remodeling an ancient stone house in Croatia. To put in the lintel for a new door he drilled holes through the stone, jacked, and cut away below. Another neat problem.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2012 - 11:53am PT
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Again, thanks for the help Guys.
Update for this morning:
Cleared out the rest of the loose dirt and rubble to get some room, grabbed the rusty piece of 4" steel channel I had lying in the scrap pile, then made a new temporary brace with a pair of small bottle jacks (had been looking for an excuse to get them... My 20 ton's way too bulky for this). Much better bracing, and gives me more room to work. Oh, and the furnace has been running a couple hours and so far no leaks. Thankfully our heat wave finally ended, otherwise working down there would be miserable.
Going to go have some lunch, then start cutting out the bad stuff left to right. Once I find solid wood I'll figure out how to scab and support the replacements.
Oh, couple other thoughts.... Looks like this crawl space area below the joist is the offset. Down the other end of the basement there isn't block and water has washed the dirt away, revealing stone down to the floor (5' or so below grade). There's been a long term water issue in this basement (often standing water and mosquitos *in* the basement) since the buried oil tank is next to the house and the driveway slopes towards the pit. Perhaps those courses of block hiding the joist was enough to trap enough moisture over the years to rot the joist without a leak? Also the heat is single pipe hot water, so no return line. Took me ages to get my head around how it works, as the feed and return for each radiator are in the same pipe, inches from one another.
Hmmm...
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Sep 11, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
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That house has been there 160+ years... the amount of rot/damage/hassle you show seems minimal considering.
While I would vote for re-routing the pipe I can understand that may open up a huge boil with plenty of resulting pis.
So, leave it alone. You will go from a manageable job to a major job in minutes.
Even your existing temp fix would probably last another 50+ years!
How about this...
1. With your temp support in place, cut away any serious existing rot back a foot or three to "better" wood.
2. Dig down to solid ground and prepare a foundation that will run alongside the existing beam.
3. Sister the existing beam with one or two treated 2x12s. HArd to explain, but create a slot for the existing pipe (presuming it looks like it has life left. Lag bolt these 2x12s in place
4. One or two 4x4 treated posts into the concrete foundation you will pour. "lift" the corner just a tad prior to pouring so the foundation really is offering support.
5. Go upstairs and spend the afternoon reading trip reports on SuperTopo.
Without being there and seeing it first hand that is my suggestion. I may not be licensed but I have lived in/remodeled more than my share of old houses including a 400 year old, horse-hair insulated, mega-house in England. Talk about a nightmare...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 11, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
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Add some forms around the effected area and fill the whole thing with concrete!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
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Well, crap.
Looks like the rot goes past the feed pipe, so all of the pipes need to come out to provide access to the right side of the joist. Crap, crap, crap. Really hoped to avoid breaking into another mess, but looks like there's no choice.
Also looks like something *should* be done with the 'subfloor', but I'm half tempted to cover and shim. Access is a major PITA there.
Thoughts on the subfloor? I'd really rather not tear up a couple feet of floor to fix it, as I'm already months behind schedule and it's no longer looking like we'll be moving here in a couple years (plan was to rent out the main house and put my mom in the cottage, but the cottage isn't looking salvageable and brother is making noises about wanting her down by him, so we's no longer need the property).
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