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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jul 10, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
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Started climbing (top-roping) 12 years ago at 43 in Castle rock and Santa- Clara gym.
1.Instantly had big passion for moving up.
2.First book fully read in English [ not count "Winnie The Pooh" I read before to my son] was " How to climb 5.12, by Eric Horst, second was John Long "Advanced climbing technique "- learn from books a lot including hand stucking
3. Learn to climb cracks in the gym - and since - this is my favorite type of climbing outdoors.
4. Met in gym a lot of climbing friends including Rick Booth who become my mentor for several years of trad climbing.
5. Got Supertopo books [all] including Road to Astroman which was finished in 10 years.
6. Met in the gym girl who soon become the wife
7. Always felt that climbing gym is main source of training. And for me it is good check up: the level I climb in the gym directly correlate with what I can climb outdoors.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 10, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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It's my observation that if a climber's very first experience climbing was in a gym.. the possibility of ever becoming an avid trad-loving climber is unlikely (but not impossible).
I've seen a lot of gym climbers transition to outdoor sport climbing but I can't think of one that is really into trad climbing. Some have the gear and give it a go once in a while. Some are even what I would call competant, but few to none are really passionate about it.
I agree with Donini on his points:
Quote: I used to believe that gyms, while they made people very strong, were a detriment to progression to multi pitch trad. I based this on what I saw out in the field. I now believe that gyms, to some extent, attract people who, because of their makeup, are going to have a difficult time transitioning in any case.
There are always going to be exceptions of course. People with certain personalities, high levels of dedication and good mentors are always going to rise up to the challenge regardless of their initial experience. People who had a lot of outdoor experience prior with hiking and backpacking/ etc seem to transition better IMO.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jul 10, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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Do you think that country folks are more likely to take up trad climbing than urbanites?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 10, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
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Bouldered til I was strong enough to make moves on moderate terrain to not be scared.
I got scared, but the moves were easy.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 10, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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The mountaineering gene is just that... its a gene. you have it or you don't. People that don't, are perfectly happy in the gym. Why shouldn't they be? Some people collect stamps and make model trains, at least they are fit and support the climbing industry with purchases (to a miniscule extent).
I started in the gym in 2001. Luckily, I have the Mountaineering gene AND the tinkerer gene. While I had some family friends show me some basics with knots and the like, I am generally self taught. I bought a John Long book, took a 1 hour super basic class at A16 which recommended gear one would need to set up top ropes, bought a few 'biners and slings and a rope and went outdoors. When I toproped climbs, I would look at things next to them and want to climb them too. If I needed gear I bought it, or figured out how to do without. Its astounding to me that, in So Cal where almost all crags have traditional routes, that a huge number of climbers walk right past these routes and never consider doing them because "they are trad climbs and I'm not a trad climber."
The idea of Identity I think plays a big part. People need to identify themselves to a team to make life simple and follow pre-determined patterns of behavior. If I am a trad climber, it makes sense why those boulderers can climb harder.
YAH BUT CAN THEY SET UP AN ANCHOR OR LEED A 5.7 HAND CRACK AT TAHQUEETZ???
You hear this a lot from weak people. If someone else does something better than you, take what you can from it and rise to it. Or not. But don't belittle someone for their passion.
I wonder sometimes if it is more difficult for Women to transition... most that I know are constantly hit on by 'climbing partners' they met to try to learn something from. Not only that but the Y chromosome seems especially focused on the Quantitative and the feminine among us seem (in my super limited, dumbass experiences) to prefer the qualitative. Meaning that anchoring, gear, equalization, and the problem-solving things that are a pain in the ass are often embraced lovingly by Men, where women might lean more towards the aesthetic movement and quality of the climbing.
I dunno. I'm not sports psychologist and I only know SoCal people, really. But as someone that played with Erector sets as a kid... there was nothing difficult about going outside. The difficulty is viewing it through the correct lens, i.e. not through the gym mindset but through the mindset of a natural progression of hiking. That's probably a bigger problem then the tech stuff, perhaps. Looking for overhanging buckets everywhere I went rather than appreciating thin face routes and jam cracks, and then the very steep learning curve for those, but that's also a product of living in a Granite state.
(it took ten years, but I climbed my first grade VI last summer, before sending my first real V4 and V5 this winter. I'd climbed ~10 routes in the high sierra before leading a 5.11a sport routes, so my gym transition was perhaps skewed by being a very weak gym climber :D)
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 10, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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I wonder how people's "observations" have any validity whatsover--how the heck do you meaningfully observe what percentage of people at the gym climb outside (sport or trad), whether good young trad climbers started climbing in the gym, etc.?
Seems that you'll just spout whatever you feel like spouting, pretend that's based on some "observations," and label obvious counterexamples as "exceptions."
My own observations could be colored by living in Boulder (and going to the climbing gyms there, for whatever reason), where there's no shortage of every type and skill level of climber imaginable.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 10, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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I don't think anyone is claiming these things as rules. Again, I do not claim to be an expert, just making some statements off of what I see. Of course people from other areas have wildly different points of view - if they are never brought up, how would I know what they are?
Its fascinating to me to dive into the psychology of the wide spectrum of human behavior. If you have to attach ego or shame to it, there is no discussion to be had. The idea that you own and are so wholly responsible for character traits is is silly - this isn't precious, its just rock climbing. Regardless of all the baseless accusations about 35 year old white weekend warriors returning their blown out slippers to REI.... the Earth will continue to spin on its axis, around the sun, which is hurling thousands of miles through the Universe for a reason the brightest minds we have can't understand, all the while blissfully unaware of the comings and goings of spoiled first world people on a message board.
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stilltrying
Trad climber
washington indiana
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Jul 10, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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Transitioning from the gym to sport or trad is in my experience very effective. I learned to climb outside and only climbed traditional routes for several years. Never really was a strong climber but loved it. Later (about 15 years ago) I built a climbing gym in Bloomington, IN. My son who had little climbing experience was the manager and many other young folks who began climbing at the gym also later worked for me. Almost all of them have become way solid climbers in all aspects over the years. All it takes is a love of climbing, willingness to learn and putting your time in on the rocks. Of course if you have a good mentor that is a big plus. I did pay for them to attend a TR clinic offered by the AMGA and thoughtthat was a great experience for them. Burton Mumaw was the instructor at Table Rock and although he certified myself and another experienced employee he did not certify my son and another young new employee/climber. They could out climb me by a mile but he told them they were great climbers but lacked experience and to get out and climb and place pro, build anchor stations etc. Best thing ever as they took on the challenge and over time became very competent climbers. Indiana offers little in the way of outdoor climbing and what there is is often on private property so a gym is a great resource and new climbers get to interact with seasoned climbers thereby learning a lot if they are interested. I also recommend reading everything you can in regards to climbing not just for technical knowledge but also to gain knowledge of climbing history and of those who came before us and what they contributed to the climbing community. Many of those folks make occasional posts on ST and there is much to be gained by listening to what they have to say.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 10, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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To answer Blah---take a look at the last few years of climbing accidents of which about 90% involve either belaying or pro pulling issues. That is an indication of changing times one would think..
I think more climbers could do themselves a better service by really apprenticing on easy climbs. I was lucky enough to be a fat f*#k and climbed 5.8, max, for years. Its not like grades scale at a direct ratio, its possible to be a 5.10 climber and fall on 5.8, but a 5.8 climber should probably NEVER fall on a 5.6. Either way, what that means is that I had done thousands of super easy pitches and built thousands of anchors before I got onto routes that I would fail on. I dunno, maybe people aren't getting hurt on routes at their limit? I definitely see the gym crowd as attempting to lead routes closer to their limit as a first, even tenth, tradition route, which in my opinion is unwise (unless you've got a great mentor or are particularly mechanically minded).
but yeah, his post reeks of some Boulder, CO Self-Love.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jul 10, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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GDavis, sometimes you have really nice posts. I think this quote of yours stands out the most:
But don't belittle someone for their passion.
We all have different passions and climbers are individuals after all.
ME:
2009: Summer of 2009 my boxing coach invited me to go up Shasta (I never been camping before). We did not bring crampons or ice axes, somehow I made it up without killing myself (not sure how, since I glissaded down the middle chute through the Red Banks). Hated the experience and said 'screw this sh#t.'
Dec 2009: Met a guy at work (who is a friend and a climbing partner now) who wanted to go climb peaks etc. We did Round Top, and I used crampons for my first time. That's where I met my other partner Bryan. Bryan suggest I sign up for a climbing gym to get better with exposure etc.
Feb 2010 Joined a climbing gym
March 2010 winter summit of Mt. Whitney with Bryan and Max (I felt like it was the top of the world at the moment).
Than I did more peaks and went a few times to climb in Cosumnes and Lovers Leap. By the end of 2010 I realized I love two things the most: Climbing routes and climbing peaks. Back than I mostly did scrambles but after June 2011 I got into trad more. So now I mostly try to climb routes on peaks. Go to the gym for training, and climbing in the valley/tahoe is more of a training to climb something harder on a peak. My dream is to climb new ice and rock routes on mountains, or un-climbed big walls (for which I still need to learn to climb big walls ha ha). Before climbing unclimbed routes there are plenty of climbed I really want to get on, and a few very obscure long climbs in Sierra that do not have topos or much info on.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 10, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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To answer Blah---take a look at the last few years of climbing accidents of which about 90% involve either belaying or pro pulling issues. That is an indication of changing times one would think..
I don't know--one of the belaying injuries in the past year or so around here was to the AMA president or some such who was lowered off the end of the rope.
I agree that many "climbers" seem do things very half-assed; I dunno if that has anything to with gyms or not.
Also agree with G Davis's point (paraphrased) that climbing gyms give new climbers unrealistic expectations of what most new climbers may safely and comfortably lead "in real life" (not at the gym). I don't mean to harsh your all's buzz too bad; I guess I fell for the the old "I'm an old trad climber and am sick of all these wussy gym climbers" troll.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 10, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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Climbing, like all activities, is pursued by people who have learned to accept there are other people in the world, and by people who have not. You could see that dichotomy clearly making itself apparent in behavior even long ago. Now that population density is so much higher and now that so much emphasis is being placed upon always taking an extreme position, there seems to be no limit.
Feedback being what it is, in time people not attuned to this world view will pursue other activities. If my first encounter had been per the modern milieu, I would have gone elsewhere. No question. Choice. Where would we be without it?
Picking up trash is where it is at today. Yesterday while working Quail Springs I ran into a table full of good old boys.
First question: Do you work for the Park Service? No.
Second question: Are you getting paid? No.
Third question: Just for exercise? Yup.
Fourth question: Would you like some hot dogs? We cooked too many.
One of the youngsters had a smile on his face a mile wide. He said, "I climbed up to the top."
I asked how he liked it. "It was great!"
My kind of climber.
Edit:
GD:
I see what you saying, but let me put it this way. Even after being exposed to modern life I have not been changed enough. Then or now I would not climb in today's world. It would have been a shame. So many climbers are truly amazing people. I have met more than my share. I am just grateful my timing was so fortunate.
There is a time for all things.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 10, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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If my first encounter had been per the modern milieu, I would have gone elsewhere.
I think it is fascinating, if not a bit premature, to assume that had you lived in my generation you would have a different mentality. Growing up with the internet alone has had a profound influence on our world, I mean hell, revolutions have come about because of it. I can't say for certain I would be the same, or different, or anything had I been one of your peers. Probably I would be here, online, in 2012 saying the world is going to hell in a handbasket - after all, that appears to be a majority belief.
It is difficult (read: impossible) to say if you would still be into this sport had you been introduced to it through my experience. However, I will say this: If I cryogenically froze you the day before you learned to climb, whatever year that was, and cooked you to life in 2001 to join me at Solid Rock Gym, yeah probably you'd hate it :) but still... never know!
Much Love.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jul 10, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
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For me personally it is really fun to climb in a crag, or on gym holds. Although both of those I see as training for a line on a peak, which is SUPER FUN (for me). Just the movement is fun. It's like an art. Body control.
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hb81
climber
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Jul 10, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
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To answer Blah---take a look at the last few years of climbing accidents of which about 90% involve either belaying or pro pulling issues. That is an indication of changing times one would think..
Don't forget that the sheer number of people climbing has exploded over the last few years, so this might be a bit of an illusion.
Dunno if there are any good statistics about the nature of climbing accidents and if / how they've changed over the years.
As someone who climbs both indoors and outdoors, my impression is that the really BAD BAD BAAAAD idiots usually stay in the gym. Not all of them, but most. You know, the ones where you wonder how they haven't killed themselves yet.
My personal road to climbing was a bit of both worlds, learned to climb & belay both indoors and on the rock, got some basic alpine/ice/glacier instruction and had the luck of finding not one, but two mentors who tought me a lot. (and still do)
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Jul 10, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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great thread
not my gen, but fwiw, started with friends of family, teenage angst drove me to climb anything in site. Managed to not kill myself since I had the basics taught to me by Uncle Bob. No gyms involved until my twenties.
I couldn't have afforded a gym membership as a kid anyways, so I would be have been a boulderer in today's parlance.
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jopay
climber
so.il
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Jul 10, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
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I'll soon be a climber for 30 years, and it goes without saying that when I began, you either Trad climbed or top roped. I chose to lead climb and I've always felt good knowing I learned those skills. The bolts showed up and I was very opposed and at times quite vocal about it. Somewhere along about then I examined the why of my climbing and I concluded for me what made me smile was pulling off that perfect move, or solving a problem, finding a better way to do the crux etc. and so I have concluded that what makes most all of us smile is movement and whether it's at the gyms or real rock protected with bolts, gear or a crash pad its still movement all good.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jul 10, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
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I've been climbing for 13 years. I started volunteering in the tiny little UCSD gym to help out a friend who needed shifts covered. It was a 3hr/wk commitment, and it wasn't even really for the climbing. I dabbled in it, and didn't take it that seriously at first. Eventually, I wanted to see what it was like outdoors. I became that yappy little puppy dog that was trying to get everyone to take me with them. Eventually, I was successful. Within a month, I dropped $1000 on a full rack.
I had amazing mentors that provided much more than technical knowledge, but perspective and attitude. These are unbelievably invaluable. I gathered the rest of the knowledge that I have through books, asking questions, creative thinking, and internet forums.
My first few trips outdoors saw me leading multipitch, and even soloing White Maiden's Walkaway. One of my first 5.9 trad leads was every pitch of Regular Route on Fairview dome. For the first decade of my climbing career, my trad leading was roughly equal or higher to my sport climbing, all the way through 5.13a/b.
I just spent the last week in the High Sierra throwing up new routes in a remote area, while mentoring someone I met at the climbing gym. I was teaching not only technical knowledge, but attempting to instill that same mentality that I was taught when I learned.
The gym was a great place for me to start, because of the people I met there and the learning opportunity. I still use them gym as a place to train for the rock and mountains, meet partners, teach and spread my knowledge and experience, and get psyched. The gym is a tool, which can be used or neglected. Personally, I try to put it to the best use I can.
Josh
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jahil
Social climber
London, Paris, WV & CA
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Jul 10, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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There seem to be a ton of people in Santa Cruz who climb at the gym who want to go outside and climb on rock in all styles.
Access, cost and intimidation (for trad) seem to be the main barriers.
When you go to the mountains do you fill your car with your friends, share racks, take someone up a route ?
Spread the love - you might make some new friends.
steve
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brennahm
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
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I started climbing last October. As an avid user of the canyon roads of the front range I would constantly see climbers in the warm months and just think..."what a bunch of idiots."
I'd been to a gym in FL a handful of times years before but never really got it, and had no idea what was going on.
Fast forward to last fall, I met a colleague who had been a climber for the majority of his life (he's been around). We got to talking and he convinced me to go to the gym with him. Around here, the gym gets pretty crowded in the cold months with gym rats and trad guys and alpinists alike. I went to the gym every week with this guy and his twin brother and learned more than I ever thought I could know and I had fun. He would laugh when I said it was fun, but to me - it was.
A month or two into this routine my mentor took me to Clear Creek Canyon and we spent an afternoon climbing single pitch sport routes. All of a sudden I realized why he always referred to the gym as nothing more than a training aid. This was WAY better.
Another month or so of gym climbing went by when this guy asked me if I wanted to try ice climbing. At this point I was feeling a little hooked and had gotten the harness and shoes and whatnot. "Hell yes!" So we went to Lincoln Creek outside Hoosier Pass. One of the best days of my life, the sun was shining, ice was plastic, it felt great.
Since then I've spent several days in our local sport areas to climb after work, weekends in Eldo doing long multi-pitches, alpine ice climbs, Ouray's Ice Fest, summer alpine trips including a big wall route, and I've started learning to lead trad.
Clearly I hit the climbing noob jackpot by getting hooked up with someone with decades of experience from all over the world. But even more important is that I don't think I would have gotten into climbing WITHOUT him. I knew people that climbed, but honestly, I never had a desire to go with any of them because I didn't feel safe. Who wants to learn from someone who says "Oh yeah, my friend has done it a bunch of times, it'll be fine."?
I like living, it's hard to find (without paying for a guide) someone who can carry themselves with an air of confidence and experience that makes you even WANT to tackle something like outdoor climbing, never mind sport vs. trad.
There isn't much of a point in all of this, but it's my experience and maybe someone can pull something from it that I can't. Furthermore, why all the hate on the gyms? Is it the false sense of security it provides which leads to accidents outdoors? If nothing else, the gym climbers are supporting our hobby...
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