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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 05:55pm PT
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C'mon Fet... don't go all "Chicken Little" on us. Daisy chains, when used properly, have tons of uses, including in and around the anchor. If you know what they can and can't do, your chances of survival are higher, but I hardly see stiffs stacked at the base of routes like cord wood from daisy failure. YMMV.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 05:59pm PT
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Landy: there is no "slack side of the daisy" with the first one you did. The end loop is devoid of structure and will always lay flat. Your diagram shows a "pocket" yet none can really exist there in that form. The webbing will lay flat as both sides of the loop are of equal length.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2006 - 06:03pm PT
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"but I hardly see stiffs stacked at the base of routes like cord wood"
Hehehe, hahaha, ..... classic line.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Apr 27, 2006 - 06:08pm PT
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When I mean the slack side, I mean more like BD or metolius makes them than the pics of yours I've seen. If the daisy is 50 inches long, one side is 50" of webbing and the other is maybe twice that and gets gathered a bit to make the loops. That long side is what I call the slack side. So say you have one like that plus the gizmo my first design, and you clip the closest pocket to your harness in the same biner that is clipped in the end loop. You take an air voyage, all the pockets blow, and now you have 50" of webbing running to the straight side bar tack, say a foot going on in the looper thing, another bar tack, and then 100" of webbing going back to you. The straight side loads up, as does that bar tacking (which is good to go), but then things come to a rest with the other set of bar tacking getting pried open because the slack strand of the daisy isn't loaded at all. I'll draw it out and post it.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 27, 2006 - 06:15pm PT
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Russ, you mean, you don't use those toy biners on yer daisys?
Then what the hell are they for???
if you can't get the clove, try the girth.
But all my daisys have long enough loops for cloves.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 06:16pm PT
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Landy: I get it. Pockets are about .75 of extra webbing to make the loop on the long side. So the more pockets you rip, the longer the one side will get, but only if you blow the last tack before the end loop. This last tack will keep all the extra webbing from ever showing up at the bomber end loop. So, you would need to rip a daisy from your waist all the way to the end to make the extra webbing rotate into a failure position. Hmmmm..... seems hard to do. If the end loop is longer than the extra failure webbing, it should never rotate that far. I'll look into it.....
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Apr 27, 2006 - 06:27pm PT
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Yeah, this assumes that you throw a lot of slack into the system with pocket blowouts. I don't think the loading is that good even if you only blow the last one, though, as as soon as things are at all uneven that one set of tacks gets the pry.
Black ovals below are the biners
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 27, 2006 - 06:36pm PT
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Russ...good one..What if we just "tied" one up from thin spectra? Remember when we made "aders" without stitching? Al la "Advanced Rockcraft"?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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Peel an onion on these pics. Whaddya think??
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 06:57pm PT
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Stttzzzzooo: First one should work, but a simple twist is pretty easy to have de-rig during a clipping-in-and-out fest where you are bunching up numerous loops and letting them drop as needed.
Second one, the 4 layers of web is too much for our bartacker. 3 max.
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crotch
climber
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Apr 27, 2006 - 06:57pm PT
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Nice idea Russ.
If you take a short piece of webbing, pass it through the last loop of a standard daisy and bartack it closed into a loop so that it floats free like a link of chain, you've got a full strength loop at the end that won't get loaded funny or pop open.
Makes for an easy way to retrofit existing daisies.
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spyork
Social climber
Land of Green Stretchy People
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Apr 27, 2006 - 07:02pm PT
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Sounds like something I might order from ya Russ. I will wait till you guys refine it some more...
But seriously, the first daisy I bought came with a little booklet, it talked all about the biner reclip problem. I thought everyone knew about this problem quite a while ago.
Not that I'm against a Fish daisy that makes it easy to avoid the problem.
Back to my mindless work....
Steve
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crotch
climber
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Apr 27, 2006 - 07:07pm PT
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Can you rig the pockets to blow at a certain load, like a screamer? Screaming daisy.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 27, 2006 - 07:25pm PT
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crotch, I think that is the problem with some current ones. screaming daisy=screaming climber=bodies stacked like cordwood
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Apr 27, 2006 - 07:34pm PT
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That PAS looks cool.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 07:37pm PT
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Kim:
Don't like they way they handle and tangle. The standard long ass daisy is my fave. They are sleek, lightweight, and have plenty of adjustments that stay open when the daisy is weighted. The POS will have its loops close when under a load.
After all you guys have now got me paranoid after 25+ years, I'm going to use the FISH Super Daisy ™™™™.... oh wait... that's what I have been using ;)
Seriously.... I'll probably go to a clove hitch in the end, tack in the insert, or make one of them directional guys. I'll make Susan use the ultra bomber Directional Guy. I want to at least be *able* to see the "edge" from my new found world of puss-dom™™™™
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Apr 27, 2006 - 07:41pm PT
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What's the link to get a Fish Daisy?
Juan
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Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:20pm PT
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Aren't we over-reacting just a tad? Yes, the deviously deceptive and daring "Daisy Clip-O-Death" could get you an "E-ticket" for your last ride (right up there with the "Sliding X of Death" and the "American Triangle of Death"). But, as Russ pointed out,
"... don't go all "Chicken Little" on us."
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"... I hardly see stiffs stacked at the base of routes like cord wood from daisy failure."
Couldn't we just use two 'biners and call it a day?
We're discussing a way to prevent improper use of equipment from killing us, rather than discussing the proper use of said equipment. Unless every manufacturer of daisies changed their design, a new "specialized" daisy developed by one manufacturer still doesn't stop people from using other daisies incorrectly. This doesn't seem the best way to go IMO, especially since the solution is so simple.
The flaw is not in the design, but in the use.
Cheers,
Thom
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