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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 24, 2012 - 01:11am PT
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"Pre-rigged rappel for her off a single sling, girth hitched to her harness. With the extra length she won't get weighted when you rap first."
Yup. That's the way to do it.
A word of warning, however...on one of my first guiding forays, I rigged my client this way...obviously, I didn't explain the concept well enough, because when he rapped down to me, he had disconnected himself from the sling and clipped in directly to his harness.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 24, 2012 - 01:52am PT
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Uh oh, we're getting into endless argument territory over things like the location of the rappel backup...
Trying to fight my way back to the actual topic, I think almost everything has been said but perhaps a summary with a few comments? Some of the things mentioned below are so obvious and routine for experienced climbers that it is easy to forget telling a novice about them.
1. The inexperienced person goes second and has their rap device installed and on an extended sling so that they can just begin rapping when the time comes. The first person down should be sure to remember which rope has to be pulled.
2. The second rappeller should NOT have a friction knot rappel backup installed, no matter what you think of them for the first person. Instead, the first person down should provide a fireman's belay.
3. The second rappeller should have some kind of pre-installed tether ready to go for clipping into the anchor when they arrive.
4. The second rappeller should be warned about getting clothing and/or hair stuck in the device. All clothing should be tucked in, long hair should be tied up and away. An extended device is typically around head level and can easily grab hair if hair is available. When checking the device installation, the first person should also check that the second's hair and clothing will be out of the reach of the device.
5. The system should be practiced in low-key settings first. If you only have a sixty foot cliff, then contrive three twenty-foot rappels. The novice rappeller should get instruction and practice in getting past roofs without smacking their head or squashing a hand and should know about keeping the rope out of cracks and other features that could cause a snag. The need for extreme care about dislodging rocks, especially from either the initial rappel ledge or from intermediate ledges, should be emphasized. And they should know to be threading the rope through the anchors and pulling it through while the leader is pulling the rappel.
Remember that, with the second pre-rigged on the rope, it will not be possible for the first person to test the difficulty of pulling the rappel, so it is especially important to make sure the set-up does not include friction and/or obstacles that will make it difficult or impossible to retrieve the rope.
If possible, the second should learn to set up rappels by themselves, so that they can be of some use in an emergency if the leader is incapacitated.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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May 24, 2012 - 03:56am PT
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can't see the advantage to an autoblock prussik backup or whatever tied below the belay device and on the leg loop. That knott will run right into the belay device an be hard to remove with a weighted rope. I always tie mine above the belay device and clip it to the belay loop. Then should I need it it's way more manageable
If you clip it short to your leg loop, you can hold the knot in your brake hand and it brakes for you, & will tighten before it hits your belay device if you let it go. I always tie knots in the ends of my ropes but am guilty of not backing it most of the time. Depends on the situation.
My gf is a good rappeller and knows how to take down anchors, but in a multi situation she still prefers to rap first, with me there. I show her where the station is, and we tie knots in both ends. Helps teach her some routefinding skills too.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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May 24, 2012 - 08:19am PT
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Yup- I agree- pre rig her with the long sling before you rap, but practice it closer to the ground first so that everyone is clear about how the setup works and what to do. All she will have to do is unclip and rap. The backup (autoblock/prussik)knot is always a good idea, but can sometimes be a hassle with inexperienced rappel-ers if it gets stuck. [see Rgold cliffnotes^^]You can firemman belay her from below to remove one piece of cord from the equation, but she should definitely know how to rig and use one (backup knot that is)in the future IMO.
Side discussion on rappel backups:
Tooth:Does anyone ever actually back up their rappel with a prussik? Or is that something to confuse/intimidate new climbers?
Seriously? Please tell me you are joking? Read through a few volumes of Accidents in N America and see how many people die in totally preventable rappel accidents. Not confusing or intimidating at all... unless you're a gym climber. ;)
L Pinkcan't see the advantage to an autoblock prussik backup or whatever tied below the belay device and on the leg loop. That knott will run right into the belay device an be hard to remove with a weighted rope
Try it... it doesn't jam at all. It locks off before it gets near the belay device. I actually find it easier to manage than the above-the device rig.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 08:32am PT
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Yes @tooth, I'm taken aback by your question. I hope it was a joke.
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Enty
Trad climber
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May 24, 2012 - 09:26am PT
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Does anyone ever actually back up their rappel with a prussik? Or is that something to confuse/intimidate new climbers?
Whoa!!! is this a joke?
E
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 10:42am PT
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if you're going to red rocks, there's one other thing: you do a long climb, maybe you've been climbing all day. you're tired, maybe exhausted, maybe your water ran out, maybe weather is developing, maybe you're racing the setting sun*. these are the things that can kill you because they cause you to neglect something you already know, or to confuse the learning you think you have down pat.
so, you go down and look for the next anchors. what if you can't find them?
don't forget to tie a knot in each free end of the rope.
always rappel with a prussik back-up. i belong to a religion which requires this, and lucky pink espouses true doctrine. that web link is run by heretics, the sort of people who still have you using daisy chains for tie-in.
for extra credit, bring an extra prussik so you can re-ascend the rope if need be. i wonder if our dentist knows how to do that.
we lose experienced, talented climbers every year who get casual about rappeling. it's why so many climbers prefer a walk-off, if one is available.
*pack headlamps on the climb.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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May 24, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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I do not think it is wise to Learn on the fly.
Listen to all the great tips from seasoned climbers.
But I do have a question for Tony, The Maid and others who claim to "always use pressic backup"...
Do you really take the time and rig that up every time????
I have see more folks get all messed up, tangled up and Fu-ked up doing that.
IMHO, you need to know what's best given the situation. Hard and fast rules do not exist.
I have done hand over hand rappels!!!
To be safe, you need to know and your wife needs to know how to rig several styles of rapps.
Do you know how to rig one without your devise?
Have fun and post a good Trip Report.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 11:51am PT
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prussiking is second nature to me, guy, since i started climbing with the RCS and they were the prussik-happiest bunch around. yes, i always use it. the bonus is that you rappel much more relaxed that way, and sliding the prussik becomes an easy habit. you can rely on it for helping you do other things on the way down. cleaning the draws? getting that piece your second couldn't get out? you don't wind up doing those things while holding on with one of your hands for dear life, or taking the time to rig and unrig the extra backup. the prussik is always there for you. the mental relaxation alone is worth it.
i rig the prussik on a short sling, separate from other things on my harness. takes about 20-30 seconds. keeping it above the rappel device avoids it ever jamming into the device. you have to know how to yard some slack to release it, but it all makes for happier rappeling.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 11:54am PT
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Yes, @guyman, every time. I hate rappelling. It scares the sh*t out of me. I'll do a lot of nasty down-climbing to avoid rappelling.
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matlinb
Trad climber
Albuquerque
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May 24, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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"can't see the advantage to an autoblock prussik backup or whatever tied below the belay device and on the leg loop. That knott will run right into the belay device an be hard to remove with a weighted rope. I always tie mine above the belay device and clip it to the belay loop. Then should I need it it's way more manageable."
The knot will not jam the belay device if the belay device is extended far enough and the prussik is short. The advantage of this is that when the knot is below the ATC it is holding only a small amount of weight and is easy to get loose when you are ready to move again.
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pFranzen
Boulder climber
Portland, OR
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May 24, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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Does anyone ever actually back up their rappel with a prussik? Or is that something to confuse/intimidate new climbers? I know it's an extra bulky piece of gear, but the Petzl Shunt is really outstanding for this.
I put them both on the belay loop though, with the ATC extended out with a short sling-- doing it off of the leg loop always seemed sort of weird to me.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
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sounds good in theory, matlin, but hit shappens. people get all balled up, miscalculate, sometimes forces stretch it an extra inch or two, sometime the leg loop slips, and there you are. why even do that? if you yard in a few inches on your rap device, the weight is off the prussik and you can slide it again.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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I just took in the detail on one of the photos, showing the use of a sewn daisy for the main tie-in to the braking device. Looks like a perfect opportunity for an inadvertent daisy death-clip; yet another reason to backup with a prussik.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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May 24, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
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Well Tony it's good you have a worked out system.
Me, I'm ready for anything.
I have had to rap down and free stuck climbers before.
The most common is the long hair stuck in the deal... this is always coupled with the devise extended. One time this dude was stuck cause his prissic was locked down, and out of reach!
When I need to use both hands, I just hold on with my teeth!
Another good thing to know, is what do you do when the ropes come up short.
Think about that one.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
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yea, using daisies for tie-ins went out at least 5 years ago--shows how much attention that website gets. those stitches on the daisies are not meant to hold big forces, such as you might get with a leader fall. if a daisy loop rips, it also rips what it's sewn to. daisies, they tell us now, are for aiding and aiding only. they now design "personal" tie-in devices, or whatever they're called, a series of articulated loops which offer full strength. old fogies like me just use slings, or slack from the climbing rope. younger guys use their teeth--very handy!--but don't damage the rope!
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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May 24, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
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+1 what rgold says.
Also consider bring gloves.
Leader carry hair ties.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 24, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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She's gonna die.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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YER BOTH GONNA DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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May 24, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
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I always use a prussik below my device. Short arms = possible problem with prussik above. It takes a couple of seconds to rig the prussik. It actually saves time when finagling over roofs and features just from the peace of mind and ability to quickly lock off if necessary.
Good that you practised in advance. I avoid the daisy because people can clip it incorrectly. Keep a sling and cord dedicated to the descent device. Do it the same way each time. Beginners need consistency.
I would also do a fireman's belay even after setting them up ahead of time. You never know what people are going to do when you are not with them.
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