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Lightenin'
Gym climber
Muleshoeville
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This is hard for me to understand. There is not even a shred of sac if it's just too hard to carry a rack on a climb. I really don't know what to make of it.
I think back to the clean climbing ethic of the early '70s. People were being asked to give up their pitons. Pitons were considered safer and more secure protection; chocks seemed strange, at least at first. But they quickly caught on. Why? Because people had a bigger idea in mind - protecting the environment was a higher value and a greater goal. Chouinard was making money from piton sales and asked climbers to stop using his pitons! Now I see 5 or 6 bolts mere inches from a clearly protectable crack. I can't understand it. Have we become that selfish? What is our guidepost here? What higher value are we serving here? Climbing has always had a clear set of values. Now, I just don't know.
The name of 'retro-bolters' seems to give it some sort of legitimacy. I guess this is their self-description: making the old new. I don't see it that way and I am offended by the name. They are 'climb-trashers' in my book. Let's call a spade a spade.
As for Martin V - I feel for you. These so-called 'climbers' aren't standing on the shoulders of giants - they're kicking the giants in the balls. Well, they surely ain't giants. No way. I'm glad you spoke out about this. It is important that we all do.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Well.......
I couldn't find any formal reference to cajun meaning "those who watch".
Excuse me for looking for something obscure, but you made me wonder.
I also have never heard of you as an original stonemaster.
And by the way, whose bolts would Jesus chop?
All that said, I do agree that adding bolts to someones route is waaaay lame.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Pitons were considered safer and more secure protection; chocks seemed strange, at least at first. But they quickly caught on. Why? Because people had a bigger idea in mind - protecting the environment was a higher value and a greater goal.
No, clean pro quickly caught on because it was hugely easier to place and remove.
But that's a subject for a different thread. Mostly I just agree that adding bolts to other people's climbs is lame.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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There seems to be some question to if he is or is not an "Original Stonemaster"...
I think he's saying he did an ascent of Valhalla, or whatever the early criteria was. Whereas we are looking for someone we've heard of.
I did some badass leads as a youth too, including hard 5.11. I hereby claim my belated stonemaster title.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Wow, being a Stone Master sounds awesome. Is there a membership application? If I go out and chop some bolts, is that a good start?
--This actually gave me a chuckle, it's from the thread over at MP....
I remember some of the first gym rats to hit the crags. Same argument then as now:
 Why should I have to buy those expensive cams, and then carry them?
Why should I carry one or two pieces for one climb--especially when the rest of the crag is bolted.
Why should I risk my ankles to some 45' climb?
And I'm sure you can add a few more.
The trouble is, kids train in gyms, and they they want that same experience outside. And them kids are the very ones with all that spit and vinegar. They come out of their cocoon, and they want.... trouble. But trouble isn't spelled with a top-rope. You gotta lead, take the sharp end, for the trouble I'm talking about.
The only problem is those gym rats weren't taught how to lead by TR'ing in a gym. Nor does leading the bolts in those same gyms instill the skills of what it takes to be a leader.
And now the worst part of it. We got guidebook authors that don't value style, but instead endorse ethics that go against the grain of of traditional values.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Southwest for the winter
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Maybe I am just an oldster at heart but at 29 and having learned to climb in a gym in within the last 5 years the idea of retrobolting trad lines and the feeble justifications for doing so are appalling. Wow...
Steve
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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I'm much more interested in the chest thumping "original Stonemaster" comment.
There really ain't much controversy over retro-ing, and the young kids aren't out there wholesale spraying bolts all over old routes, despite the contingent here that always want to act like that's happening with their "kids these days" comments.
And, as usual, the way to deal with it is to locate the guilty party and speak with them and/or chop the bolts...that's how I've done it in the past...talk and spraying on the internet is good for killing time, but I've yet to see a computer wield a crowbar and epoxy.
So I went to my bookshelf and broke out this one last night:
Oddly enough, I didn't notice "Martin Veillon" in there. Maybe I missed it? Similarly, I've read everything Largo has ever published on climbing, and I don't recall hearing about a "Martin Veillon" there either. Never heard that name come up in the times I've bullshitted with guys who were named in those publications. Things that make you go "hmmm". Now that I think about it, I'm an original member of the Beatles, and co-founded Amazon.com.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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What Steve said in the post above this is worth expanding on, because rotted in it is the only solution to this problem.
Remember when you were young and on fire, and you and your friends were pushing your limits in the way that seemed right to you? And some old guy came along and mumbled about how you were doing everything wrong?
If you changed your ways, it wasn't because some old wrinklies who used to climb told you you were being bad, it was because someone among your peers got on your case.
You old guys (who are mostly younger than I am) can spew on the internet all day, every day, from now till the day you die, about how "young people today just don't have any respect" and it won't make much difference.
It's up to the leaders of that generation of climbers to do the pushing. And not just the high profile leaders, but also the people who are just out there all the time, getting it done. Like Porkchop Steve.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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What say you Werner? Know the guy?
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Lightenin'
climber
Muleshoeville
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You old guys (who are mostly younger than I am) can spew on the internet all day, every day, from now till the day you die, about how "young people today just don't have any respect" and it won't make much difference
Who made this into a conflict between generations? That distracts from the issue, IMHO.
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WBraun
climber
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I don't know the guy nor do I care.
I just happened to Google the dude out of curiosity and he came up in several places all with the same arguments posted here.
He seems upset.
He says on one site that he's recovered heart bypass or something like that.
Anybody ever hear of some guy named Warbler?
He says he's an original Stone Master ...... :-)
I'm the "Stupid Master" and "Turd" hahaha
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Lightenin'
climber
Muleshoeville
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No, clean pro quickly caught on because it was hugely easier to place and remove.
I have to agree with you on this point. There was also a real concern about scaring. The rock was helped out by better technology that made climbing sense -- maybe a 'perfect' solution. Too bad this isn't so with (over use of) bolts today.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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There needs to be an ASCA equivalent that I can donate to to fund the chopping of retro-bolts
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Well, sounds like he is forever associated with the Stone Masters now, reminds me of George Costanza's attempt at getting renamed
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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In a similar vein, Sonny Trotter has taken to calling his teaching / guiding operation in Squamish the "Stonemaster Series".
http://sonnietrotter.com/rock-guiding/
All this kind of stuff seems to me like leeching off the glory of past pioneers/heroes. Make up your own name for pete's sake. And while it's somewhat understandable that a "who?" guy like the OP might try to glom onto that rich history, it's mystifying why someone with the qualifications and abilities of Trotter can't manage to come up with an original moniker...it's not like he needs to clutch at glory of the past to lend legitimacy, the guy is badass...lack of imagination maybe? Who knows.
Gotta split, I'm headed out for lunch with my wife, Morgan Fairchild, yeah that's the ticket.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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I just had my name legally changed to Stonemaster.
I expect y'all to call me that from here on out.
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Lightenin'
climber
Muleshoeville
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There needs to be an ASCA equivalent that I can donate to to fund the chopping of retro-bolts
Actually, there is such a thing. Its the CABOMOC organization: Chop All Bolts On My Original Climbs, Inc. It is headed by Ken Nichols :)
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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You guys that are wanking on Martin V for calling himself an original Stone Master need to be put context into your wanks. Kevin Worrall was the first response, addressing Martin by name. Werner piped in at the 19th post. John Long closed out the first page. They all commented on the substance of Kevin's complaint; none commented on who is or isn't a original Stone Master.
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dfinnecy
Social climber
'stralia
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Largo wrote:
Not wanting to place pro in a crack for fear of carrying a pack full of cams and wires? Is that for real? What kind of "climber," lacking all modicum of sac and healthy shame, actually admits that on a public forum?
Lazy punks.
The convenience arguments are just,... enraging.
Safety arguments are easier to forgive, but I think we slipped near the top of that slope decades ago. The bottom of the slide is a long gradual run out ending at smiling puppies manning the Gri gri as you z-clip your way up the 3rd class approach. And complimentary Purell at every anchor.
From the sounds of the intardwebs we are heading for WWII. Interesting how things change, I wasn't a climber until the last round was all but over, and there have only been skirmishes since then. Look at Smith Rock and the early sport routes put up there, they were rap-bolted and certainly less risky than predecessors. The fruit of a new generation and new ethic.
But damn, they still required mastery of the craft to get to the anchors. If Barbecue The Pope were bolted today the first bolt would have been the fourth.
If you want safety not born of your own skill and practice you have chosen the wrong sport.
Frak this I'm going bowling.
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