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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 26, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
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an application was submitted to reclassify a 20-metre corridor from Class A parkland to a protected area that would allow for the construction of the gondola towers
They may attempt to dress it up as they wish, but it's rather oxymoronic to describe a 20+ m clearcut swathe through a park as "protected". Probably much wider than 20 m - surely there are tree people around who can comment on that? If you're building a gondola (or transmission line, or..), what's the minimum width of swathe you cut? Say the towers are (conservatively) 30 m high, with 30 - 40 m trees to either side, and windthrow potential from the new 'edge'?
The developers seem well advised in terms of presentation and marketing. But you can't dress up a sow's ear as a silk purse, no matter how hard you try. 20 m or 80 m? Two, five, or more towers? Slight rerouting? Exactly how visible, from where? Class A park or "protected area"? Details! Important details, but details. It would still be land taken from the Parks, and the trees would still be removed.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Mar 26, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
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Hey Anders, I'm thinking it's pretty rocky ground, and many of the trees up there are small. The nightmare-looking swath you're referring to might not be too bad.
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coastal_climber
Trad climber
Squamish, BC
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Mar 26, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
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This sh#t needs to stay out of the park.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 26, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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Here are some images from the website.
This is where they say the gondola and station will be, in relation to the Chief and Shannon Falls. However carefully you locate the route, a whole bunch of trees are going to come down. If there's any chance of trees falling on the gondola or towers, they'll be removed.
And a profile view. Pretty hard to miss it - although they might have used a more realistic colour to show the line, the towers and tree removal don't seem to be shown, plus the bottom is blocked.
There are more photos at http://www.seatoskygondola.com/?gallery=gallery Those depicting the gondola and its impacts may well understate matters. Overall, though, it's clear that the thing will be quite visible from many places. Again, in a sense a detail - the issue is whether it should be there at all, not whether it can be better designed and built.
Contact information for the developer:
info@seatoskygondola.com
Sea to Sky Gondola Corporation
201-1365 Pemberton Ave,
PO Box 1850
Squamish BC
V8B 0B3
For clarity, at some point the company behind the proposal became Sea to Sky Gondola Corp. It seems likely that the new company is related to Ground Effects, as the individuals involved seem to be the same. Earlier references to Ground Effects Developments Inc. should be taken to read Sea to Sky Gondola Corp., if it is material. The address for Sea to Sky is that of a law firm.
If you're writing letters, etc, refer to Sea to Sky Gondola Corp. The name of the company doesn't really matter - what it's proposing does. But best to be clear.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Mar 27, 2012 - 01:48am PT
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I think goat ridge/brittania would be cool, the mtn biking season would be longer than Whistler so there would be traffic on low visibility days (common), it could make $$.......for some of the year. If it was for sightseeing only- near the chief, there will be probably be a lot of days where people won't want to spend their $$ to go up into the clouds. People like that downhill biking around here & if there was a cheaper option than Whistler i'm sure a lot of visitors would find more value to the Squamish area, in Whistler there are entire families that are on day trips or on downhill bike vacations in summer just like they are on ski vacations in the winter, July & August are now some of the busiest months for the Whistler businesses. If it has to go thru the park then the gondola base should start downtown at the undeveloped waterfront! Bring some traffic into the local economy. Otherwise i don't see much benefit that the Squamish area & residents will receive from the current plan. I actually don't see much benefit for the developers either. I guess all we can do here is speculate, it seems like more information is still needed & a lot of work will probably have to be done to make an alternative like the Goat ridge proposal- even if sanctioned here- realistic.
Thanks for the links & numbers in the opening post, as well as the information & points of view from everyone. A lot of info here was recent to me & i have been trying to follow the development as far as what's been in the local media.
Premier Christy Clark: premier@gov.bc.ca or (604) 775-1003
Can you really just call the premier??!!
Yep, vague resemblance to the monorail.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Mar 27, 2012 - 10:38am PT
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Sorry guys but it looks great to me. Looks like about 4-6 hrs. of hiking that can be avoided with a seasons pass to the tram.
If I could ride up that capsule, with my bike hanging off it, and ride around up there for awhile before heading over to join a trail which lands you back down in Britannia, I'd feel pretty fortunate.
I'm not sure "stealing land from the park" is the best wording. It's more like an easement.
I know MH will be up there on the west facing deck, beer in hand, looking through the telescope to see if anyones on penny lane.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 27, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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Should it be built at the proposed location, I would as a matter of principle never use it.
No one has suggested that the land would be "stolen". However it's presented, the land would be permanently taken from the parks for other uses. You can say it's an "easement", or a "rezoning", but the reality is that a swathe of land would be cut from the parks.
The number for the premier is from the government's website. Somehow I don't think that Ms. Clark answers it.
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Cloudraker
Sport climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 27, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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Other than maybe some forest stands near the base and in the subalpine, Isn't it all second growth shite up there? What's the big deal? Let them build the damn thing.
Why does it seem like British Columbians stand in the way of EVERY proposed development?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 27, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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Well, it doesn't seem that anyone here is opposed to every development. Many are opposed to a gondola within provincial parks, some less so. No one has said that they're opposed to a gondola in a better location - Goat Ridge, or perhaps elsewhere in the Squamish area.
Had the gravel pit/land been properly protected in the first place, this wouldn't even be a subject for discussion. All those who united against the 2004 proposal wanted the possibility of inappropriate development there off the table, permanently, and money was found to buy the gravel pit to that end. Indeed, recreation and conservation interests in effect paid so that the land couldn't be developed.
With regard to a Goat Ridge location, the proponents and supporters may come up with one or more of the following responses/excuses, without necessarily doing a genuine examination of that option:
1. It's not in the District of Squamish proper, and therefore the District wouldn't directly benefit from taxes on it.
2. Most of the workers would probably live in Squamish, and so have a little farther to go to work.
3. The needed land isn't available at the base, for whatever reason. Although the area has been largely dormant for decades.
4. There's no suitable base location in Britannia - size, access, other developments, whatever.
5. There's no location along the highway north from Murrin Park that would work, due to topography, intervening power lines, whatever.
6. The developer would have to start again - or perhaps more accurately, start by doing what it ought to have done in the first place.
7. A Britannia - Goat Ridge route wouldn't work, for some technical reason. It may be somewhat longer. The top area is fairly close to and possibly could be at the far end of the overgrown logging roads in upper Shannon Creek - one fork went almost to the ridge.
The underlying motives, though, may be simpler:
1. We, and perhaps our friends in government, have made up our minds, and don't want to bother considering other options, even if they might be better.
2. We've already spent money developing our proposal, and acquiring the land. Not our problem.
3. Whether or not they admit it, they want as high a profile and as visible an operation as they can get, in the middle of as much other activity as possible.
We may never know exactly what happened, when. But it seems quite likely that the developers right from the start wanted a location in the middle of the Parks, and have been focused on that only. And as mentioned, the issue is whether there should be development in provincial parks generally, and those Parks in particular, especially given the history. It appears that a Goat Ridge gondola is a viable alternative - but as with the details of what might be built, how and where, that's secondary. Sure, if the public and governments are dumb enough to let the proposal go ahead, then it may be time to talk about the hows, whys and wherefores. That's not the question. The question is whether it should be allowed at all.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 27, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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Here is an excellent photo of the Chief and area, taken by Ed Cooper from the top of the Papoose. I believe the photo is from some years ago, but you can see clearly the gravel pit, and the area where the lower part of the proposed gondola would go.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 27, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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The gondola should go straight up the middle of the Chief.
They should build a McDonald's and a huge shopping mall at the top.
Then it would good.
If you're gonna do sumthin, do it right and grand!!!!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 27, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
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Thanks, Werner - you're right. The death of 1,000 cuts just prolongs the agony. Let's get it over with.
The gondolas will be from Yosemite Lodge to the north rim, from Happy Isles to Glacier Point, and (of course) from El Cap Meadow to El Capitan. All will feature restaurants, gift shops, mountain biking, native displays, hiking, circus rides for the kids, and other attractions which have great popular support, with all the right pacifiers. It may be necessary to change the National Parks Act to let it all happen, but hey, that's only paper from those easterners anyway. The Valley's pretty much all developed already, isn't it? There won't be any direct impact on climbers, as the Lodge gondola won't start right at Camp 4, it'll only pass overhead, and no climbing routes will be affected. So it's not really a climbers' problem, is it?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 27, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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lol .....
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bmacd
Boulder climber
100% Canadian
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Mar 27, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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This sh#t show should be installed farther south and make use of the abandonded Woodfiber ferry complex
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Mar 27, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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The easement they're seeking totals less than 0.4% of that park.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 27, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
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The easement they're seeking totals less than 0.4% of that park.
Kind of a key 0.4%, I'd say, and probably rather more, once the dust settles. Like being a little bit pregnant. And calling it an easement instead of a deletion is unconvincing - trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. (Not that I have anything against pigs.)
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Mar 27, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
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Well I had to try, as it sounded a little friendlier.
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adrian korosec
climber
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Mar 27, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
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Sounds like a gondola would be a great idea.
A nice hut on top serving gulasch, wine, and other treats would be fantastic.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Mar 27, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
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What's wrong with gondolas? They have them all over Europe. The free of charge gondola between Telluride and the Mountain Village, CO saves tons of carbon emissions every year.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 27, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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Thanks, Adrian. Have you been to/climbed at Squamish, or do you live there?
Kalimon: Does everywhere need to be like Europe? The mountains of Europe seem rather over-developed, and people come here from Europe specifically to experience something less developed.
As some know from their in-boxes, I sent the message in the original post quite widely. In fact, to over 300 individuals and groups - essentially, every Squamish climber for whom I had an e-mail address, world-wide, every climbers' and conservation group that might be interested, and a lot of people in B.C. Parks and other government bodies. Including a lot living or based in Squamish, and a number known to be in favour of the proposal. Quite a number asked if they could forward the message, and I said sure. It appears it has gone quite widely, and some of the replies were from groups or individuals I hadn't heard of or met.
I've gotten about 30 replies. In my experience, a 10% reply rate to such a message is quite effective. (Most replies agreed with me, and opposed a gondola in or near the Parks.) I suspect the message has generated considerably more interest, though. I wonder how many messages the politicians are getting, how many hits forum discussions are generating, and so forth?
Don't forget to write, with your thoughts on the proposal:
• Premier Christy Clark: premier@gov.bc.ca or (604) 775-1003
• Terry Lake, Minister of Environment: env.minister@gov.bc.ca or (250) 387-1187
• Joan McIntyre, MLA: joan.mcintyre.mla@leg.bc.ca or (604) 981-0045
• Chief Ian Campbell, Squamish Nation: chief_ian_campbell@squamish.net or (604) 982-8646
• Mayor Rob Kirkham: rkirkham@squamish.ca or (604) 892-5217
• Chair Susan Gimse, Squamish-Lillooet Regional District: sgimse@telus.net or (604) 894-6371
• Sea to Sky Gondola Corp.: info@seatoskygondola.com
State your views, the reasons you have them, why you’re interested in this issue, who you are, and where you live. Remind them that government’s job is to protect and manage parks, in the public interest.
You can also write to:
• Vancouver Sun: sunletters@vancouversun.com
• Squamish Chief (newspaper) dburke@squamishchief.com
• Globe & Mail letters@globeandmail.ca
• Georgia Straight letters@straight.com
• Vancouver Province provletters@theprovince.com
For those interested, there's some additional discussion at:
http://squamishclimbing.com/squamish_climbing_bb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3402
http://squamishclimbing.com/squamish_climbing_bb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3765
http://squamishclimbing.com/squamish_climbing_bb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3406
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