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splitter

Trad climber

Hodad surfing the galactic plane

Mar 15, 2012 - 09:20pm PT

I have a pair of BD Sabretooths that I purchased about 11-12 years ago. Just wondering if they are one of the defective models/years??

edit: Oh, okay, thanks!

jfs

Trad climber

Upper Leftish

Mar 15, 2012 - 10:43pm PT

Splitter - no, this is regarding the stainless model of Sabertooth.

SGropp

Mountain climber

Eastsound, Wa

Mar 16, 2012 - 12:24am PT

Has anyone heard of problems with other models of Black Diamond stainless steel crampons ?

I bought my Sabertooths before they changed to stainless, but I bought my son a pair of new SS Seracs for general mountaineering as a graduation present. Any reported problems with them ?

Pennsylenvy

Gym climber

A dingy corner in your refrigerator

Mar 16, 2012 - 12:56am PT

YER ALL GONNA DIE !!!!!

RDB

Social climber

Mar 16, 2012 - 12:53pm PT

"As a caveat, don't believe everything you read online"

Ya, I take that to heart when it comes out of BD these days.

I have a better than basic understanding when it comes to metals and ice gear Eric. If we haven't actually met in person ask around you might get an education. But I did note not a single word from you on the initial subject of this post..."catastrophic failure of BD's Sabertooth crampons". Best to just go back to work then, because you don't seem to be very good at your job imo.

Dane

"I have no idea whether the Sabretooths are the best ever (relative to the intended use), useless junk, something that you've abused or have unrealistic expectations about, have quality control issues, or anything else. But if you haven't first tried to work it out with the dealer and manufacturer, and aren't willing to tell us what happened, don't come crying here."

on this subject that is hilarious...and clueless.

JBC

Trad climber

Portland, OR

Mar 16, 2012 - 04:39pm PT

Black Diamond’s best all-around crampon, the Sabretooth features a lightweight stainless steel design. (highlighting added)

A couple of points here. This is all just marketing speak. The first is, admittedly my opinion/impression and could well be wrong, but when I read "best all-around" I think of an item that is able to used for many purposes for many years. I think of a durable product, more so than a high performance super light piece of gear. But the statement really does not say much.

The second is "what is lightweight" frankly nothing more than marketing speak as well. Lightweight compared to what? In fact combined with other statements from BD it is looking more like a dodge to cover for poor durability of a product.

For comparison purposes, the Sabertooth is listed at 1172 grams, and apparently according to BD lightweight and not particularly durable, in essence a 1 year lifetime. My Choiunard/Salewa hinged crampons, had no cracks or problems when I sold them after 25 years of use! These old school, durable and one would assume, heavy crampons weigh a whopping 920 grams, that's half a pound difference! In favor of the "durable", "old" technology. Seems clear to me BD has a real problem here.

As for taking this to a dealer/BD, many people have, but it does not appear that anyone has gotten straight answer from BD as to what is going on here.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Mar 16, 2012 - 04:51pm PT

So this is a product that has developed through multiple versions, over the last decade or two? Probably with extensive design and testing before they're marketed? And thousands, or tens of thousands, of pairs sold? You then offer anecdotal evidence of problems, not necessarily even yours, often provided by anonymous posters? Some of whom seem to regularly complain about Black Diamond, and who don't communicate their problems to BD? Which has an extensive quality control department, and a reputation for taking legitimate complaints seriously?

Sorry, it's hard to take that seriously. I have no crampon to grind here - although I bought my first pair in IIRC 1972. I have BD, Petzl, Mammut, Metolius and other brands of equipment, and have had others in the past. I buy what's best for my purposes, in balance, and indeed recently renewed much of my gear. And I've met people from all the companies, at OR, and when I was with the Access Society got support from most of them - including BD. But anonymous, anecdotal criticism of a reputable manufacturer seems misdirected energy. If you think a product hasn't done what it reasonably should have done, talk to the manufacturer. If you don't get satisfaction, then maybe complain - but provide all the facts. I've seen W&R in action at a major retailer, and know how often the story and the reality differ, often significantly.

RDB

Social climber

Mar 17, 2012 - 02:31am PT

"anonymous, anecdotal criticism of a reputable manufacturer seems misdirected energy."

Dozens of documented stainless Sabertooth crampons with catastrophic failures (the kind of "catastrophic failure" that might easily kill you if they happened at the wrong place) Who knows how many really as BD won't admit to a problem. But anyone interested or knowledgable on the issue knows full well there is one.

None of the owners have been anonymous. Pretty clear who I am. Reputable manufacture? To date, on the issue of catastrophic failures on stainless Sabertooth crampoons...hardly.

I still use and suggest selected BD gear. I have nothing against BD. No axe to grind here. Other than the fact they have crampons failing and decided last year to spin it instead of admit to a problem and fixing it. Think not? Do your own home work. Info is there and easy enough to find.

miwuksurfer

Social climber

Mi-Wuk

Mar 17, 2012 - 09:20am PT

Looks like majority shareholder Warren Kanders is bringing his safety and QA history to Black Diamond...

Bob Culp

Trad climber

Boulder, CO

Mar 17, 2012 - 11:36am PT

It looks to me like BD has a problem on their hands.
I’m not talking about Chinese manufacturers or broken crampons. I am referring to public perception of their brand.
When it comes to climbing gear I am not particularly motivated by nationalism or brand loyalty. I really don’t care if the stuff is made by Ethiopian lesbian dwarfs. What I need to know is:
1- Does the gear work?
2- Can the gear be trusted?
I needed a new pair of crampons yesterday. I was leaning toward the new Petzls or Grivel G20s but Neptune’s was out of both. The BD Stingers looked good so I went for them. I like them. They climb extremely well.
The thing is though, since they were made of the stainless steel that has been called into question, I hesitated for a moment. I figured because of the design, failure like that of the Sabertooths wouldn’t happen. But – I hesitated and that’s not a good thing.
I don’t know if a lot of the crampons have been breaking or not. Sounds like that may be the case. I do know BD needs to start a crash program to address the issue (one would hope they already are doing that).
They need to get those crampons into a lab and start breaking them. If there is a problem they need to recall the defective models that are out there and fix the problem. If that requires re-designing then do that. If it requires going back to chrome-moly and dropping stainless then do it. If chrome moly isn’t sexy enough – paint em pink or something. I don’t care.
If there is no problem – give us substantive information to that effect.
What we don’t need is company spin or slick sales pitches by ernest young employees who started climbing 3 years ago, if that.
This ain’t the auto industry.
If the BD brand takes a serious hit it will be a loss to the entire climbing community.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Mar 17, 2012 - 02:38pm PT

Actually, if I bought ice gear I think I would prefer it be made by Ethiopian lesbian dwarfs.

I used to be a big BD fan until Peter Metcalf lied to me.
I hope he wants to sue me, Ron Olevsky, for putting it here.

Yeah, Bob, they DO have a problem with the public perception of their brand.

Their ethics are dictated by the bottom line, and perfection of quality is no longer the name of the game. Too bad. I don't think Yvon would have run things that way.

They threw me under the bus. Turnabout is fair play.

Boycott Black Diamond.

rhyang

climber

SJC

Mar 17, 2012 - 03:59pm PT

Picked up a pair of Stingers earlier this year, wore them for 7 days climbing in Canada and Montana this winter. They definitely climb better than I. Used them on a few mixed routes -- limestone and basalt. Took a peek under the anti-balling plates to see if there were any hairline cracks. Nope.

I do have a couple of observations:

The frontpoints were a little loose after the first trip, so I tightened the bolts down. Didn't see anything similar after the second trip.

I mangled the soft metal on the inside of the heel levers while initially fiddling around trying to get the ideal combination of toe/heel position and length. Fortunately I had an older pair of levers lying around that fit. Not that this is specific to BD -- I'm embarrassed to say I've mangled the plastic in Grivel heel levers too.

BD does not yet offer a spare bolt/spacer kit for the stinger; for now I was advised to ask the warranty dept. for spare parts when the times comes. Also, the replacement frontpoints (same as the cyborg) are sold in single quantities, unlike some other crampons.

The old black chromoly sabretooths are indestructible -- have no intention of getting rid of those anytime soon. BD no longer sells anti-balling plates for them, but it's easy enough to make your own from juice bottles and zip ties.

SilverSnurfer

Mountain climber

SLC, UT.

Mar 17, 2012 - 06:48pm PT

I have a pair of the SS Sabertooth pros still in the box-close inspection reveals no visible cracks, but this info still worries me. They may just stay in the box for now.

Reading through this thread, I noticed a claim that there are now "dozens" of documented reports of failing Sabertooths? Following the links provided, I seem to be ending up at multiple reports of the same events. A few (or even one)instance of catastrophic failure is bad enough, but "dozens" would really sound the alarm bell for me. Does anyone have links to the documentation for this claim of dozens of SS Sabertooth failures?

Thanks,

Allen

dirhk

Trad climber

Mar 17, 2012 - 07:34pm PT

I am also interested in some sort of documentation of the dozens of crampons that have broke. I have been able to find a couple by using google, but no where near 24+.

RDB

Social climber

Mar 18, 2012 - 04:53am PT

I had not bothered to keep a running tally on broken BD crampons. But I likely have seen most of the public data because of the cold thistle blog and my earlier relationship with the management at BD. I naively thought this topic would be long dead by now and the problem fixed since we are a full year in now..

So you can take this for what it is worth to you. I'll not offer any more details as many of the sources do not want to be outed in public for what ever reason. This whole iisue has been kept surprizingly tight lipped by all involved imo.

As this story broke on Grav Sport last year I was orginally told by BD personal that 6 pair were broken as of 2/21/11. Then as a few of us that were interested compared notes, the BD reps directly involved were saying anything from under a dozed to just over two dozen. I was later told it was under two dozen when I pressed again later in the week. Which is why I have said "dozens". Accurate? Honestly I can't tell you an exact number. The numbers I was getting from BD kept growning on a daily basis last Feb. Then my original source at BD stopped communicating with me a few days later.

I had further converstaions with BD in March but never again about broken crampons or with my original source.

What I could easily gather tonight from earleir notes is this:
from Grav sports but certainly not definative. Nor have I checked other on going Internet threads I know of.

Rafael broken ss 2/15/11
AT Thomas broken ss 2/15/11
Iwelsted 2/15/12 broken chromoly?
Farzad broken ss 2/11/12
Linderbach broken ss 2/23/12

Cold Thistle
emails or PMs from my memory before I stopped counting last winter
5 broken ss in Europe last winter, 3 in the UK
notes on CT right now, new breaks
bent SS 2/17/12
cracked ss 2/17/12
ss front bent 2/20/12
Nick from shop 2 cracked one bent 2/25/12

18 if you take Ian's chromo pair out that have some sort of documentation if only my memory from the PMs to Cold Thistle. And if I counted correctly. You could include the original BD numbers in that 18 but I doubt that is accurate either.

I by no means have access to the real numbers that have been broken.
BD has made what I would consider a concentrated effort to get any faulty crampons back in short order and with no public comments. To be fair BD has also very quickly replaced any crampons (with credit or any BD crampon) identified as faulty in every failure I have been privy too by the original owners. So nothing wrong with the BD replacement/warrenty policy on broken crampons.

It is their lack of public comment from the beginning and all the very public pointing of fingers at every thing but the crampons at issue that worried/worries me.

Sad really because rhe Saber and Serac climb exceptionally well. But in 30+ years of technical ice climbing I have never seen a crampon design fail so dramatically. I sure as hell don't want to be in a pair when they do. YMMV

Dane

GrahamJ

climber

In the rain

Mar 18, 2012 - 01:20pm PT

I had a chat with Black Diamond's distributor down under about this. They said that essentially, they were out-selling their competitors by so much that it was inevitable that there would be more broken BD crampons than crampons from other brands (Not a direct quote). I'm inclined to not believe this, as a simple survey at a hut will show that one brand is not over represented. It would be interesting to know what the actual percentage of breakages is. But we'll probably never know what it is.

BD seems to have a policy keeping mum on issues that arise - and it's hurting them. An acknowledgement of the problem and that they're working on it would go a long way.

RDB

Social climber

Mar 18, 2012 - 02:11pm PT

"essentially, they were out-selling their competitors by so much that it was inevitable that there would be more broken BD crampons than crampons from other brands (Not a direct quote). I'm inclined to not believe this"

Interesting to see company's internal culture sales speak filter through to their world wide sales staff and then the end users as the "truth".

This was also the claim in the discussion at grav sports on broken BD picks some time back. "We sell the most world wide of course we'll have a more broken picks". I drank the BD koolaid at one time, fell for that line and repeated it myself.

http://www.gravsports-ice.com/icethreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6363&page=all

Being told "NO Sabers would/will/have broken with a decent rigid boot" (Nepal Evo for example) literally as these showed up on Gravsport opened my own eyes to the fact either upper level BD employees didn't know their own products or there were serious flaws in the specific design/materials of their horizontal ss crampons.

hossjulia

Social climber

Eastside (of the Tetons)

Mar 18, 2012 - 02:36pm PT

Looks like a design flaw to me. Too much stress on the material where it bends there at the front points. SS, and pretty much all metals, as far as I know, have a grain to them. If these were stamped with the grain going against the direction of that bend, well, they would break rather easily. If the grain is going in the same direction as the bend, it is very, very strong. My guess, they got a batch stamped against the grain and can't figure out which batch.

How do I know this? Paul Ramer taught me. :)
I worked for Ramer and while there, we got a whole slew of parts that were stamped wrong. Broken spring bars on bindings and snowshoes & shovel blades breaking with light loads. We also had plastics formulas totally messed up. Yucko and something we jumped on right away. This rash of manufacturing problems did not help Ramers bottom line one bit.
It was the same manufacturer in Denver for all of our parts, so Paul taught me what to look for and sent me down there to QC everything before it was accepted.