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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Nov 17, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
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data.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2011 - 03:58pm PT
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One more thing...
Where's Sprock when you need him/her??? I've found that there's a lot of substance behind all that hoo-hah, you just need the secret decoder ring. My decoder ring might not be 100% effective all the time, but I see the substance more often than not.
Calling Dr.Sprock...
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
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Yeah, Dos, it's funny how we read things and make up our worlds. I automatically put in the "er" and made up my own meaning (and sort of made you up, too). Sorry about that.
I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. (It's unsanitary.)
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Nov 17, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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Let at them trucks. The look like ants.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
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To me this ultimately comes down to equilibrium. The Earth is big, but it is finite. If we are consuming in such a way as to exhaust or permanently damage the resources, and not contributing anything to offset the impact, we are on the road to nowhere.
People seldom think things through to their ultimate conclusion because today's issues always win out. Taking the mineral resources can be ok, as long as the impact is mitigated somehow and there is as much resuse as possible of what has been already extracted. If we never reach equilibrium in consumption we will eventually due irreversable harm.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
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Any of you guys rock hounds?
Here. Been too busy though and would rather climb:-( Love to go walkabout in the desert digging and searching. Love it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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Great movie about mining He-3 from the Moon for Fusion nuclear reactor energy production back on Earth or Moon (a future possibility???), which is supposed to be better than using 3^H (Tritium) for the Fusion reaction. Very interesting story. You can stream it at NetFlix.
"Moon" - Official Trailer [HQ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twuScTcDP_Q
http://www.sonyclassics.com/moon/
Moon's Helium-3 Could Power Earth
http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/gallery/pdf/space_com063000.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3
Mining the Moon (Great Article)
Lab experiments suggest that future fusion reactors could use helium-3 gathered from the moon.
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/19296/
Mining The Moon
An Apollo astronaut argues that with its vast stores of nonpolluting nuclear fuel, our lunar neighbor holds the key to Earth's future. However, before we mine it, we'll need to determine who owns the moon?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/moon-mars/1283056
Who Owns the Moon? The Case for Lunar Property Rights
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/moon-mars/4264325
2 books I've read that I highly recommend that discuss ET mining in detail:
Mining The Sky: Untold Riches From The Asteroids, Comets, And Planets (Helix Book) [Paperback] John S. Lewis (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Mining-Sky-Untold-Asteroids-Planets/dp/0201328194/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3DONIN6P1JTAO&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
The Case for Mars: The Plan to Settle the Red Planet and Why We Must [Paperback] Robert Zubrin (Author) Richard Wagner (Contributor)
http://www.amazon.com/Case-Mars-Plan-Settle-Planet/dp/145160811X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3FOEXRVWDGHXP&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
More reason to get out to the asteroid belt and mine the nearly limitless resouces there. No one is gonna miss a few asteriods and the bad environmental ethics, damage to mother Earth, and political strife can all be avoided. Besides, think of the adventure that ET mining would bring. Way cool.
“The asteroids that are potentially the most hazardous because they can closely approach the Earth are also the objects that could be most easily exploited for raw materials. These raw materials could be used in developing the space structures and in generating the rocket fuel that will be required to explore and colonize our solar system in the twenty-first century. By closely investigating the compositions of asteroids, intelligent choices can be made as to which ones offer the richest supplies of raw materials. It has been estimated that the mineral wealth resident in the belt of asteroids between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter would be equivalent to about 100 billion dollars for every person on Earth today. “
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?why_asteroids
http://ngec.arc.nasa.gov/files/ngec_proceedings/speakers/Lewis_Asteroids.pdf
Related thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1664065/Our-Cell-Phones-Are-Killing-People-Blood-Minerals
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Nov 18, 2011 - 02:07am PT
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Interesting thread Dos XX. I'm a geologist and have worked in the oil & gas, mining, and ground water remediation industries over the last 30 years. Geologists are sort of like "drug dealers" where the drugs are fossil fuels, raw materials, precious metals, etc. and the addicts are developed or developing nations trying to create or maintain a standard of living that is becoming increasingly unsustainable.
//How do YOU reconcile your love of nature and wildness, with your love/need for stuff from beneath the Earth?//
Mining operations are large earth moving enterprises where >90% of what is removed is waste. It's nearly impossible to do this without negatively impacting the environment. Personally I would be happy to live with less to preserve environmental quality but that's a fairy tale notion.
If you could personally re-shape HOW and WHERE mining is done, for the betterment of the environment, what do you think ought to be tried?
Where & How mining is done depends on the value of the ore and where it's located (e.g., Developed nation VS 3rd world country). Here are some examples...
Elemental sulphur mine in the Ijen crater Indonesia (photo courtesy whimsicalbunneh on flickr)
(photo courtesy whimsicalbunneh on flickr)
"Las hormigas" at Serra Pelada, Brazil
Athabasca tar sand open pit mines (Keystone pipeline). Society has made a value call to sacrifice this land for energy production. There's no way to undo the damage that is being done to these areas, let alone the enormous carbon footprint for this type of operation.
Also, the USGS and Afghanistan Geological Survey estimates of known and undiscovered copper resources total nearly 60 million metric tons. Resources of iron in known deposits are more than 2,200 million metric tons of iron ore. Twenty mineralized areas, including significant deposits of Rare Earth elements, were identified that merit further study.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2007/3063/fs2007-3063.pdf
What changes in your government's policy toward mining would you like to see?
Oversight that protects miners, nearby community, and the environment. Another fairy tale notion.
It's hard to be very optimistic about the future our planet. Especially given the increasing world population, demand for raw materials and energy resources, and the devastating impact all this will have on future climate and environmental quality.
To quote Jim Morrison...
“I don't know what's going to happen but I wanna have my kicks before the whole sh#t house goes up in flames”
― Jim Morrison
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 18, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
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Great posts above! ^^^
A positive attitude is the first step toward resolving the greatest problems.
Here is one I have not heard much about. I figure just about any landfill prior to 2005 is filled with a fortune in recyclable metals and other resources. I would think some people could get mighty wealthy digging up and processing those things.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 19, 2011 - 01:29am PT
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Spider-
I too have thought that would happen at some time in the future.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 19, 2011 - 01:31am PT
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Well, there are a number of mines where they're now re-processing the tailings, and making money doing so. Although such operations are often combined with re-opening the mine itself, as ore reserves grow or become more recoverable.
Reprocessing a garbage dump would be relatively simple, apart from the tendency of governments to build things on top of them.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 19, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
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Sometimes the mining world makes out of this world geologic discoveries that just make us go AAaaawwwwweeeeeeeeee . . .
How many more caverns of crystals out there like this or perhaps even more spectacular are there? It would be incredible to know.
A rare glimpse of the cave of crystals
Mexico's Cave of Crystals stunned geologists when it was first discovered in 2000. The underground chamber contains some of the largest natural crystals ever found - some of the selenite structures have grown to more than 10m long. Professor Iain Stewart got a rare glimpse of the subterranean spectacle while filming for the new BBC series How the Earth Made Us.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8466493.stm
A longer feature film of the same . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lfLm8jVZTY
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 19, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
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And guess what ... You'd never see them otherwise ...
More cool sh#t brought to you by mining... (nevermind your phone, your car, your computer...)
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2011 - 10:41am PT
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Thanks, @dave, for sharing your real-world images from Chile and Grasberg. Very few people have seen giant crystals in-person, as you have.
And @nutjob and @klimmer for more info on the potential for extra-terrestrial mining. We may be going to look for Unobtainium sooner than we might have expected!
@hightraverse's posting of the Google Earth image of Grasberg showed what looks to me like the surface manifestation of a block caving operation (up on the ridge, east of the open pit mine). I'd like to comment on block caving that extends to the surface, on a later posting. I'm guessing that @dave has had some experience with the Grasberg block caving operation.
@fortmental and @laughingman both made comments regarding what is known as the Mining Law of 1872, which governs certain aspects of mineral project development on land owned by the U.S. government. Trying to describe it as concisely as I can, the Mining Law of 1872 gives each United States citizen over age 18 the right to make an ownership claim on certain "locatable" minerals on United States-owned land. Locatable minerals include gold, silver, copper, lead, molybdenum, titanium, and a few others. The rights to recover "common" minerals such as clay, gypsum, aggregate, and energy minerals such as coal and oil shale, are governed by other laws and regulations. Under the Mining Law of 1872, any adult U.S. citizen can stake a mineral claim on land managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management, or even the U.S. Forest Service, with exceptions being land designated as wilderness, or withdrawn for environmental reasons such as the presence of threatened or endangered species. Staking a claim, however, does not give one all the entitlements necessary to start a mining operation: multiple permits (reclamation, water quality, air quality, Corps of Engineers, Fish and Game) must still be obtained from various federal, state and local agencies.
There are two aspects of the Mining Law of 1872 that have brought the law under scrutiny in recent years: 1) the fact the U.S. government receives no direct compensation for the value of locatable minerals recovered from U.S. lands, and 2) potential for abuse of the "patenting" of mineral claims.
Regarding issue 2) a claim holder may petition the government to grant full ownership (patented) rights to the surface land inside the boundaries of a mineral claim. The original intent of this aspect of the Law of 1872 was to provide a convenient and (financially) secure place to construct and operate ancillary facilities such as processing mills and administrative offices for mining operations. There have been instances, however, when patented land was turned over to non-mineral business entities for non-mining development projects. While theoretically still possible under the law, patenting of mineral claims has pretty much come to a halt because the U.S. Bureau of Land Management has slowed or stopped processing patent applications; this was essentially an administrative solution to the problem of potential patent abuse, but not necessarily a permanent solution.
Issue 1) pits the desire to incentivize business development in the U.S. against a sense of receiving fair compensation for mineral resources owned by the People of the United States. One could make the argument that companies compensate the federal government for their extraction of minerals on U.S. land, by paying income taxes on profits. But, if Company X owned many mining operations (or non-mining business operations) all around the country, and was on the whole just breaking even or in the red, then even if one particular gold mining operation on BLM land was wildly profitable, the government would receive no compensation for the minerals extracted. Personally, I'm in favor of a modest severance tax, in the 3%-4% range, to be levied against gross revenues from locatable minerals recovered at a specific mine on federal land. I'd like to see the proceeds of such a tax go directly to funds-starved agencies that manage and protect wild and beautiful places, such as the National Park Service, and U.S. Forest Service.
When changes to the Mining Law of 1872 are proposed, resistance from the mineral industry can be pretty intense. As an example of just how big the issue of mineral taxation can become in public policy debate, it has been front-page news in Australia for the last two years, and in fact brought down one government. I understand the need to promote mineral development in the U.S. vs driving businesses to go abroad, but I believe a few, modest changes to the law would go a long way to establishing greater fairness for all concerned.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
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Mining companies may fight for the most amount of profit but they are going to need to change their ways to survive. Unless they offer up a high level of financial transparency AND environmental responsibility they are going to be continuously blocked by environmentalists and taken over by dictators as in Venezuela.
The social justice movement that is sweeping the world definitely applies to mining. Smart leaders in mining will do well to the degree they respond proactively.
The personal energy and creativity required to extract mineral wealth must include spreading that wealth to the surrounding people and to the land and it's other natural resources; wildlife, water systems, and flora.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
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Dos XX - Excellent summary of the 1872 Mining Law. it has been slightly changed over the years to add fees to hold claims. In addition, the Interior Dept. has had a moratorium on patenting of claims for many years.
I agree, a modest NSR royalty for new mines would go a long way toward moderating the rhetoric. Many older mines, even in the current high price environment are high cost marginal producers and a new, unplanned top line royalty would quite possibly do them in, along with the many good jobs they sustain. However, correctly applied (new mines, new expansions), I believe it is a reasonable compromise.
Yes, I've spent a little bit of time at Grasberg. It is planned to convert the pit to a block cave by 2017, and the other expression is the DOZ block cave mine - they total 240,000 ore tons per day, which will all be from underground by 2016-2017. There is another underground mine operating, one more under development, and yet another planned. Absolutely incredible place to see - photos can never do it justice. It is sad that the strikes have turned violent on all sides and that the military is such a presence there.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:17am PT
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I know a mining engineer. I heard a woman once ask him what mining was like. His answer: "We cut down any trees, dig a huge hole in the ground, poison everything for miles around, and leave."
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2011 - 08:28am PT
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It's nice to see some good guys n' gals in the mining business. This family-owned quarry decided to become 100% solar powered, entirely on their own initiative.
http://www.northbaybusinessjournal.com/33807/a-100-solar-powered-quarry/
Rock crushing is very energy intensive, but during the sunniest months of Summer their solar panel array actually feeds power back into the grid, even while the crushing plant is running at full capacity.
What the article does not mention is that this quarry carries out simultaneous reclamation of mined areas, rather than delaying reclamation until the mine is depleted (which their permit allows). Simultaneous reclamation is also done on their own initiative.
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