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Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 18, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
what does sincere and principled have to do with anything? How do we know He's not bought and paid for?...because he says so?



and why would anyone give any of these jackals any money?
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Oct 18, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
An eyebrow merkin?

Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 18, 2011 - 03:02pm PT
Mangy: A dollar today has 3% of the buying power it did in 1913. I'm not sure I'd call that "success."


How do you compare the buying power of a dollar in 1913 to the buying power of a dollar today?

How much did the following cost in 1913?

 An automobile
 A polio vaccine
 A nylon climbing rope
 A computer
 A cell phone
 Airfare from NY to LA

Sure, maybe a loaf of bread costs 20 times more than it did in 1913, but who cares?

Did people have 20 times more bread in 1913 than they do today?

Infant mortality rates were 20 times higher in 1913.

What statistic really matters in our lives?

If the 20th century in the USA was not a "success," then there never has been economic success, anywhere.

Thanks, but I think I'll stay right here in 2011. I'd rather not spend any time in Ron Paul's fantasy world where things would be "better" as measured by a few nonsensical statistics.



HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 18, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
Kalen
Before you switch party affiliations just for Ron Paul, you and I need to have a glass of beer....or 5.
He makes some sense, but very little. No Single Issue candidate for President is worthy of your vote. The job is much too complex for that.

fattrad
Paul is correct on a couple of issues, and far off on so many others that he could be taken for 5150 in California.
HEY, that's the 3d time in two days you've agreed with me. Which one of us is backsliding?
And thanks for the excellent summary of the Fed.
Fred
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Oct 18, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
Keep in mind I am a UC Santa Cruz alumni

I think alumnus is the word you're looking for.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 18, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
Why we need RP's new budget and economic plan:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204479504576637513885592874.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read

Basically, austerity is a myth. We just had the biggest spending year ever. To a lesser extent the same holds true for Greece, which has yet to lay off a single public sector worker.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 18, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
Sure, maybe a loaf of bread costs 20 times more than it did in 1913, but who cares?

Did people have 20 times more bread in 1913 than they do today?


You don't really get it. Inflation is a tax on savings, and like all taxes, it imposes a disincentive. Low savings means no capital for infrastructure investment, manufacturing, etc. Couple that with artificially low interest rates imposed by the Fed and you make it far worse. Money is forced to seek higher yielding, risky investments. We have seen how well that works.

Another problem is that for the last 20 years we have had the inflation, but paychecks have not kept up. The rich are heavily hedged against inflation with real estate, stocks, etc. But the middle class finds its buying power eroded.

And people wonder how we got to where we are?

Ron Paul might have a few offbeat ideas, but what we need right now is to abolish the Federal Reserve. They are the major cause of our economic problems.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 18, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
CrackAddict
Either you're simplifying the Greek situation or you're not up to date.
As of Oct 3:
The Greek cabinet has approved a reduction in the number of state workers there, a contentious part of an austerity plan aimed at meeting stringent conditions to borrow more money from the European Union and International Monetary Fund.
The plan creates a labour reserve allowing state workers to be placed on partial pay of 60% of their current wages and be dismissed after a year.
The government says it will put 30,000 workers in the reserve by the end of this year.
The public sector accounts for a fifth of the labor force in Greece.
http://www.mediawatch.co.nz/news/world/87198/public-sector-layoffs-approved-in-greece
The 60% wages and dismissed in a year, is economically similar to our Unemployment Insurance.
So technically speaking, no the gov't hasn't laid anybody off. You can bet it's coming or the EU won't give them the 8Billion Euros bailout money.
The Greeks have known this was coming for most of this year. And they're VERY unhappy about it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 18, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
You don't really get it. Inflation is a tax on savings, and like all taxes, it imposes a disincentive. Low savings means no capital for infrastructure investment, manufacturing, etc. Couple that with artificially low interest rates imposed by the Fed and you make it far worse. Money is forced to seek higher yielding, risky investments. We have seen how well that works.

Another problem is that for the last 20 years we have had the inflation, but paychecks have not kept up. The rich are heavily hedged against inflation with real estate, stocks, etc. But the middle class finds its buying power eroded.

Much is true here. I take issue with "artificially low interest rates". It's true that was a key factor in the mortgage bubble, but there were others: Shrub and the Repubs (and the Dems) pushing the silly notion that not enough Americans own their own homes; plain old corporate greed; mortgage companies breaking the law in required paperwork; lack of Federal oversight; people buying properties with the expectation of unrealistic (MUCH higher than inflation) appreciation. The low interest rates were just an enabler for a whole business sector that was out of whack. No one had to build the house of cards.

GM is a separate deal. They imploded because of 2 decades of poor management. A small amount caused by the unions (compared to Ford and Chrysler). Mostly bad product line management. Ford didn't go bust and never took a $ from the gov't. Chrysler had been mismanaged for longer than that.

It's also not clear that lack of cash for investment is the problem right now, with CitiCorp alone having more cash on hand than the GDP of Sweden. Most big corporations are swimming in cash, precisely because they can't figure out how to spend it safely. Hire people? Invest abroad? Invest in manufacturing capacity? Invest in the stock market??? Keep it stashed under the mattress seems the safest thing to do now.
Every industrialized nation has a "central bank". They don't always make the best decisions, obviously Wall Street doesn't either. The central banks and financial markets are still essential to modern economics.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 18, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
Deregulation with the thought that the markets will self regulate is ludicrous.

The majority of Americans are woefully un/misinformed and pay little heed to a corporations ethics.

Sheeple can't self regulate, and money trumps ethics nine times out of ten.

I honestly like Ron Paul, and agree with much of what he has to say.

That doesn't discount the fact that his model can't work, in regards to respecting consumers.
Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 18, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
You don't really get it. Inflation is a tax on savings, and like all taxes, it imposes a disincentive. Low savings means no capital for infrastructure investment, manufacturing, etc.
Really, so there hasn't been any savings or investment since 1913?

Almost every Fortune 500 company was founded after 1913. Some of these companies are pretty darn big.

You live in southern California? Almost everything in southern CA was built after 1913.

Seems like somebody must have been doing some investing, despite the existence of this evil Fed.

Couple that with artificially low interest rates imposed by the Fed and you make it far worse. Money is forced to seek higher yielding, risky investments.

Money is forced? Somebody is forcing my investment choices?

We have seen how well that works.
Yes, we have seen how well it works.

We live in the wealthiest society ever to exist on earth.

It all works quite well.

Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Oct 18, 2011 - 05:36pm PT
For a cartoon it's pretty informative. I am sure it's not 100% spot on but it's pretty dang close. Take some time from your busy day and enjoy it, it's also pretty funny.
The American Dream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGk5ioEXlIM
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Oct 18, 2011 - 05:54pm PT
I have to agree with Fatty on "Greece is going down," along with Spain and possible Ireland.

It's simply not possible to run a Socialist Welfare State without REVENUE which to do so...

So here's a quote:

In oreder to "give someone" something, it has to be "taken" from someone elso.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Oct 18, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
Simpleton!

I'm referring to Government and not to individuals. Christmas at my house has always been a Joyful Time of Year.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Oct 18, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
About that Fed Audit...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2011/09/20/the-feds-16-trillion-bailouts-under-reported/

The media’s inscrutable brush-off of the Government Accounting Office’s recently released audit of the Federal Reserve has raised many questions about the Fed’s goings-on since the financial crisis began in 2008.

The audit of the Fed’s emergency lending programs was scarcely reported by mainstream media – albeit the results are undoubtedly newsworthy. It is the first audit of the Fed in United States history since its beginnings in 1913. The findings verify that over $16 trillion was allocated to corporations and banks internationally, purportedly for “financial assistance” during and after the 2008 fiscal crisis.

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) amended the Wall Street Reform law to audit the Fed, pushing the GAO to step in and take a look around. Upon hearing the announcement that the first-ever audit would take place in July, the media was bowled over and nearly every broadcast network and newspaper covered the story. However, the audit’s findings were almost completely overlooked, even with a number as high as $16 trillion staring all of us in the face.

Sanders press release, dated July 21st, stated:

“No agency of the United States government should be allowed to bailout a foreign bank or corporation without the direct approval of Congress and the president.”

The report serves as a clear testimony of the Fed’s emergency action plan to bailout foreign corporations and banks in a time of crisis, but the GAO report does not berate the Fed; rather, it provides a lucid explanation of where the money was allocated and why.

According to The Washington Post, “The GAO report did not condemn the Fed’s actions, it simply illuminated them. The GAO also recommended that the Fed make clearer and more rigorous its policies for hiring independent contractors to manage investment programs.”

A wider investigation of the Fed is due on October 18th, which will provide more thorough details. The GAO report said that the Fed issued “conflict of interest waivers to employees and private contractors so they could keep investments in the same financial institutions and corporations that were given emergency loans.” The audit will inspect the “conflicts of interest” and the inner-workings of the Fed’s emergency-lending programs.

For Sanders, one thing is clear: “The Federal Reserve must be reformed to serve the needs of working families, not just CEOs on Wall Street.”
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
thank you mr souza.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Oct 18, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
I cast one kernel of corn for Ron at the Iowa State Fair. This should have put him over the top . . .
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Oct 18, 2011 - 07:15pm PT

You don't really get it. Inflation is a tax on savings, and like all taxes, it imposes a disincentive. Low savings means no capital for infrastructure investment, manufacturing, etc. Couple that with artificially low interest rates imposed by the Fed and you make it far worse. Money is forced to seek higher yielding, risky investments. We have seen how well that works.

So which is it? Inflation is a disincentive meaning no one wants to invest or it is far worse and Money is forced into investment since it loses value in a low/no interest checking/savings account?

High inflation undoubtably causes problems. Inflation in the 2~4% range has a lot of benefits. People have an incentive to make investments. During recessions, the Fed can put the prime rate below the inflation rate which makes borrowing/investing more attractive. With zero inflation, you can't do that.

Mild inflation tends to make your labor markets competitive since a constant wage combined with a little inflation makes worker costs go down.

When you have a Greek/Ireland situation where they have almost zero inflation (being tied to the Euro) the only way to make labor more competitive is to bargain for wage cuts. Much, much harder to do that (and far more street riots). If Germany would allow 4% inflation, Greece/Ireland could get a 4% improvement in labor cost just by keeping wages flat (fewer street riots).

If we were on a gold standard we would be having massive deflation. Sure that is great for savers, but deflation makes debt burdens greater and it makes the value of assets fall. If you think our housing market is screwed up now (and it is) it would be completely non-functional in a deflationary system.

Nohea

Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
Oct 18, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
What does Mr. Paul say about the Fed? Here's and interview from last december off CNN's, Fortune and Money's website. Link below.


What are the Federal Reserve's shortcomings?
They're doing a job that's impossible to do. So it's not a single person's fault. It's not just former Chairman Alan Greenspan or just current Chairman Ben Bernanke. It's the assumption that anybody knows what interest rates should be, or the assumption that they know what money supply should be, or the assumption that they can have stable prices or the assumption that they could deal with unemployment.


Do you think we're better off without a Central Bank?

Sure, it's better off that we don't have depressions and inflations and financial chaos and the problems that we face. We of course wouldn't have this backdoor financing of big government fighting wars overseas and getting people to depend on the welfare state. None of that can happen without a Federal Reserve.


How do you think these corporations have benefited from the Fed?

They receive free money. I mean they tide them over. The free market would have allowed General Motors (GM) to go bankrupt and the various companies that got the benefits. The banks would have had to reassess and the bad debt would have been liquidated rather than have all the derivatives and the illiquid assets being dumped on the taxpayer, which is what the Fed holds. Instead of the people who made all the money in the boom times suffering they got bailed out and the people who got stuck with it will be the American taxpayer.


You've long advocated returning the world to the gold standard. Where do you see the US dollar going?

The world will eventually give up on the dollar. That's why the markets are so shaky – they don't know what to do. Gold prices are up and commodity prices are starting up. And most people realize that the world will not be suckers forever and just take our dollars at will. I mean if we can create trillions of dollars and expect to buy goods and services someday they're going to put their foot down and I think we're just starting to see the signs of that happening.

The euro conveys no more confidence than the dollar. All the currencies are paper money. So the only way you can measure the value of the currency is by something that has been used for 6,000 years and that is in its relationship to gold. And that of course shows that all the currencies are weakening, which means in time all the crisis will go up. So the measurement has to be on what the money purchases.

I think what's going to happen is what's happened in the last 10 years. People will start using gold as money, shift some of their paper assets into gold. Purchasing power of gold goes up and it will go up in all currencies, even though there may be minor fluctuations where the yen may do better than the euro – that sort of thing.


Do you really think America could adopt the gold standard? How can this practically happen?

Not only the faith in the gold standard, it's the lack in confidence in paper and insanity of creating money out of thin air. Throughout history, we've seen that money ought to be a real asset whether it's silver or whether it's gold depending on the situation. People always want something of real value.

Look at how many people have money in exchange-traded funds for gold. Billions and billions of dollars. I've always considered myself being on the gold standard. I studied this in the 1960s and the predictions made that Bretton Woods couldn't work. When it failed in 1971 it really caught my attention. Back then you can buy gold at $35 an ounce. I put my reserves in gold and it hasn't hurt at all. People who would have had at the same time parked a bunch of paper dollars back then they would have lost about 80% of their purchasing power where the purchasing power of gold has skyrocketed.


But then some would argue that investment in gold is also a bubble. What would you say about that?

They can believe it, but I think it's the bonds that are at a bubble and the dollar is at a bubble. But no, I don't consider that a bubble at all. There will be corrections – you can have gold go down $200 or $300 and it wouldn't prove a thing.

Although I wrote the book End the Fed, I don't say that you should end the Fed in one day. All I say is allow the constitution to be used – you can use gold and silver as legal tender, that's what the law still says. We have multiple currencies being used around the world all the time. There's no reason why we can't have a couple of currencies circulating here in this country. So we should be allowed to have gold and silver as legal tender to pay our debt.


How do you think the economy would improve if the gold standard were adopted?

The transition is one thing, but if you were on a gold standard the economy would be many, many fold stronger and you wouldn't have the business cycle. You wouldn't have to go through booms and busts. Prices would be relatively stable, the purchasing power of your money would be stable, balance of payments would be adjusted automatically.

But gold over the century has increased in supply by 2% to 3%. If more people are demanding gold and there doesn't seem to be enough physical gold, it pushes the purchasing power of gold up. Then the incentive grows for the people to mine gold. So it has worked many many times over hundreds if not thousands of years of history.


Do you want to end the Fed?

Well, I don't expect to. The Fed's going to end itself when they destroy the system. So yes I would end the Fed but I would do it gradually and have a transition. I would let people voluntarily opt out and not be forced to use depreciating money. Just think about how terrible it is that people make 1% or less on a certificate of deposit and banks get money for free and then they buy Treasury bills for 3% or 4% making billions of dollars. It's just not fair and people are waking up to this.


You're a big believer in Austrian economics, which holds that government does not have a role in regulating the economy. Some people would argue it was the lack of government regulations that contributed to the financial crisis. What would you say to something like that?

I think it was too much regulation. What they did was create the imbalance by keeping artificially low interest rates, which causes excessive debt and mal investments. For instance, interest rates were low, builders built too many houses, prices of houses seemed to go up, seemed like it would last forever, congress comes in and they pass a law, affirmative action that you must give loans to everybody even people who don't qualify.

Would you ever characterize yourself as extreme?

No, I think what we have is extreme. It's out of wack. I mean I want to balance the budget – I don't know why that would be extreme. I want limited government, I wanted personal liberty, I want to bring our troops home.


But some would consider ending the Fed is a bit extreme, don't you think?

No, I think printing money is extreme and crazy. I think the obscenity is allowing the Federal Reserve to print $3.3 trillion and we don't even know where it went. That to me is what's so extreme. And that's what the American people are waking up to. Government is extremely out of control. That is what I think everybody agrees on in the Tea Party movement.


I cut out some sections, because it was already long. Here's the link.
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2010/12/14/congressman-ron-paul-end-the-fed/
Nohea

Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
Oct 18, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
So when the US government decides to help victims of storms, tsunamis, earthquakes, starvation, disease outbreaks, etc. that doesn't reflect the genuine heartfelt desire of her taxpayers?

Long before the State "handled" it, the private sector was fully capable, but now under the taxed nanny state, we individuals dont know how to help. We've been made stoopid

Edit cuz its not worth another post. So the good dr says I 'm stupid because I believe in my fellow citizens and do not believe in the government.

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