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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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war,
Did I ever tool you???
The evil one
ME Climb
If you didn't maybe I can
LMAO!
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Twenty-year-old Brandon Powell tells The Associated Press that Shareef Allman visited him Saturday at his Sacramento home and showed him a newly purchased AK-47.
Got to wonder if Brandon will now be sued for not reporting a terrorist
threat or something. Any news on if Shareef was on antidepressants?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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An AK-47 in CA has been illegal for years.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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weschrist
thanks for that gun sales link for CA legal AK-47s
We then install a Bullet Button style device and ship the rifle with a blocked mag that will only take 9 -10 rounds this allows the rifle to be compliant in California due to the fact the magazine can not be easily removed. You will need to manipulate the mag latch with a bullet , small screw driver or other device & this is easy once you are familiar with the system The underlining is mine. Sounds as if any adolescent could convert it back.
fattrad
I'm impressed by your common sense this time (Mini 14). If you'd only use more of it before you post zinger one-liners. ;-)
And that's my one zinger for the day.
Since Allman's death was pretty much in public view, I'll accept that he pointed a weapon at the officers and although I hate to use the word "justified", I believe they did what they had to do. It may have been "suicide". It's clear he had severe violence issues earlier in his life. It also appears an acquaintance knew he was collecting arms and was angry with people at work. That is the killing combination. Anger at specific people and the easy availability of assault weapon style firearms.
Ron
I would LOVE to see the guns out of the hands of all mentally ill, but as you can see,, calling the mentally ill shot is a bit of a fairy tale BINGO. Now consider the choices that leaves society.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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And almost across the board, criminals will claim "mental instability" as a defense,, simply because it cant be "proved" either way. That hasn't prevented California from having 163,000 inmates in State prison.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Claiming insanity is hardly a successful defense for committing crimes. It RARELY works. Heck, it didn't even work for Al Fish and he kidnapped, fileted and ate multiple children. (The buttocks were the best; the peewees too chewy). There are many other examples where such an approach failed to work. Not a recommended approach though for some reason the public thinks it's wildly (or even sort of) successful.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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they have a very peacefull country compared to the rest of the world So it works well for the Swiss.
But only because they control their weapons carefully.
It sure as hell doesn't work well for us. Unless you mean to imply that we all should be armed.
Have a look at Wikipedia
When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment. In this case of retention, the rifle is sent to the weapons factory where the fully automatic function is removed; the rifle is then returned to the discharged owner. The rifle is then a semi-automatic or self-loading rifle.
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The sale of ammunition – including Gw Pat.90 rounds for army-issue assault rifles – is subsidized by the Swiss government and made available at the many shooting ranges patronized by both private citizens and members of the militia. There is a regulatory requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there.
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The Swiss Army maintains tight adherence to high standards of lawful military conduct. In 2005, for example, when the Swiss prosecuted recruits who had reenacted the torture scenes of Abu Ghraib, one of the charges was improper use of service weapons.[5] To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragschein (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.
It is, however, quite common to see a person serving military service to be en route with his rifle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
Switzerland is in the process of making their gun laws more restrictive.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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fattrad
Yes, if you are taking anti-depressants you have a mental illness that is being treated.... and should not own guns That's another generalization. How many of our frontline soldiers and police are on anti-depressants? Or should be?
But OK, let's take it at face value. Let's make it a law, for only private citizens of course. So if I'm on anti-depressants and want to buy a gun, I stop taking my meds...for how long? Then I buy a gun but am now significantly less mentally stable than before. Or, I'm 19, feeling crazy, and don't go to a Doc because I want to buy guns. Suppose someone's on anti-depressants because they've had a significant event in their life? How long till they can buy a gun?
Not a workable argument.
Now for my statistical data for the day.
The US is the only industrialized country where there is wide acceptance that people will own guns, that they can own assault-style guns and ammunition, that regulation of gun ownership will be minimal, and that it's OK to for society to accept the consequences. Every other industrialized country puts strict controls on gun ownership and what types of weapons and ammunition are available to the public.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_gun_ownership
The US has 89 privately owned guns per 100 people, Switzerland 46. The next highest industrialized country is Finland with 32. And down from there to Russia with 9 and England with 6.
Firearm related death rate per 100,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
South Africa 72, Columbia 52, Thailand 33, Guatemala 18, US 15, Finland 7, Switzerland 6, England 0.5.
Odd isn't it? England has among the lowest gun ownership and firearm related death rate.
And yes, the ratio of gun ownership to firearm deaths is just about the same for Switzerland and for the US. So the Swiss people, heavily armed, are no safer than we are. The same ratio for Finland is 1/2 and for England is about 1/5 of US and Switzerland. In which countries should you feel safer walking the streets?
Edit: the firearm related death rates include suicide
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Let's take a guess and say 5 years off of Meds. As long as that also applies to armed law enforcement and military, I'm OK with it. But it doesn't solve the other problems.
I lost a friend to gunshot suicide. Was having meds problems. Blew his head off at home, with family present. In a house that had several guns. Fortunately I didn't have to help clean up. Unlike his family. They don't do much target shooting anymore.
Gun possession is not a joke.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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What an utterly charming and joyfully delightful thread. Easy enough for a peacenik unarmed Canuk to say. They've got a civilized country. Sheesh, they even have healthcare for all.
Canada: 31 privately held guns per 100,000; 5 gunshot related deaths per year per 100,000. About the same ratio of gun ownership to firearm death as US , Finland or Switzerland.
Is there a trend here?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Ron
the point of the statistics is there's a strong correlation comparing US, Finland, Switzerland and Canada (among other industrialized, democratic countries) between rate of private gun ownership and death by firearm. Some other countries are more restrictive and have lower relative rates of death by firearm. Some Americans accept that 5 to 30X more firearm deaths per person than other countries is acceptable. Many do not
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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It's also a function of our demograghics, try braking the shootings per population to our various ethnic groups, I think you won't be surprised. Show us the facts.
Out of my own curiosity, here is a chart I made correlating rate of gun ownership with rate of death by firearm for industrialized democratic countries. Argentina and Mexico are interesting aberrations. With them removed R^2 is 0.8. Very high correlation. We're nearly 3X the firearm death rate of Switzerland.
As that famous and exemplary LEO Sgt Friday used to say: "Just the facts, M'am"
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O.D.
Trad climber
LA LA Land
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I'm coming in pretty late in this discussion, but have a contribution and some observations. I worked with a guy 10 years ago in the Livermore Valley (next valley inland from Cupertino/Silicon Valley) who subsequently took a job at the Heidelberg/Hansen quarry where the shooting occurred. He was not there for the 4:30am safety meeting, but as a higher-level manager he was of course there in the aftermath. What a tragedy for the victims, their families, and surviving co-workers. I even had a colleague call from North Carolina to make sure I was OK, since I spent a lot of time in mines and quarries in Northern California.
Regarding my own feelings on rights to gun ownership in the US, well, I guess I'm a healthy contributor to the 88/person figure since I own several firearms. I enjoy target shooting but am not a hunter. When someone is presenting a point of view in an argument, nothing works better for me than cold, hard facts and statistics. I think High Traverse's presentation of real numbers is outstanding -- in fact it was his excellent statistical analysis that caught my attention and prompted me to comment. I'm curious how per-capita gun ownership in Israel would fit in these figures. Whenever I travel in Israel I actually feel safer knowing that a lot of the people I'm on the street with or riding the bus with, are "packing". That's my two bits worth.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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O.D.
Thanks. The tables I looked at don't include Israel. I also wondered about Israel but didn't dig any further. Israel is likely an outlier anyway since as so many people here have pointed out, they're in a virtual state of war with people living on their borders.
My last thoughts on this tragedy:
Our society has come to accept that people will carry assault type weapons. This is what separates us from most of the industrialized, democratic countries. Even Switzerland.
SUNNYVALE, Calif. (AP) -- A close friend of the employee accused in a deadly California quarry shooting says the suspect showed off an assault rifle over the weekend and said he would use it at work.
Twenty-year-old Brandon Powell tells The Associated Press that Shareef Allman visited him Saturday at his Sacramento home and showed him a newly purchased AK-47.
When Powell asked what the gun was for, Allman said there were racist people at work who were "messing" with him, then laughed.
Powell says he thought Allman was joking. Presumably Powell didn't notify police. After all, Allman hadn't done anything illegal.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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I worked with a guy once who I assumed ("knew") would someday go postal. I wonder if he ever did?
Looking out at the Wyoming landscape, driving in the truck, just the two of us, he used to ask me these questions:
"Do you think if I buried a body out here, anybody would ever find it?"
 (Oh, yes, definitely!)
"Do you ever get so mad that your vision just goes black, you just can't see anything, and then you can't remember?"
(Umm... No).
"Yea, that's what happened when I shot those guys. They attacked me and my gf in our truck, and I pulled out the gun, they ran, but I shot anyway. Shot four of 'em. Only got 2 years and probation 'cause it was self-defense, but my Mom kicked me out of Texas. That's how I came here."
(Hmmm... I don't know, Chip, I think that's a problem)
All I knew was I wasn't showing up to work when they fired him! They did eventually fire him, for starting a fist fight with a client, but he was rather contrite about it. He also went back to Texas immediately. Shwew!!
(BTW... this was a blond white guy)
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Have you done any research into my demograghpic contentions yet? Nope. Your claim, I'll let you do the research and present the facts.
cleo- that's a scary story.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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From experience, I will answer for Fattrad: "Facts are irrelevant"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Lets face it. Our culture romanticizes guns and violence.
If we did a better job of education there would be far less violence and tragedy.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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So, speaking of Wyoming... On January first 1980,I saw this guy name was Dale chamberlin, rap off the end of a rope and cartwheel into the boulders at Devil's tower. Steve Gardner and went to rescue. When we ran up to what we thought would be a corpse he sat up ( he wore a helmet) and Said "I need a cigarette!" I thought he was odd... as did the Colonel, when on another occasion, he did a new route with him.
We were both proved correct when he went bananas, shot and killed a couple co-workers,(Gillette Wyo) then barricaded himself in a female co worker's house and shot a bunch of people including some cops. Somehow a pipe bomb in his possession ignited, and the house burned down,he did not survive, though I don't recall what his own mechanism of death was. He was another blond white guy.
Like i said, he always seemed odd, but climbers can be an odd bunch....
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