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tom Carter
Social climber
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Sep 25, 2011 - 12:57am PT
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Interesting.
Did the rt with Vern soon after the fa.
Felt like great adventure back then - wandering up all the rock seemed open and free because of the lack of bolts.
Tc
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Sep 25, 2011 - 08:26am PT
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it is an interesting argument..
one that gets clouded by time...
once this slippery slope is opened it creates more venues for more bolts for more masses.
i remember the ethic during that ear as one of minimalist and also since most of us were poor, we used bolts according to our ability to buy more.
then there was the stance issue- not all routes were run out on purpose as most modern bolt clippers would argue, they were placed where a stance would allow.
as one who respects you very much Rick, i would say do what your gut says is right. but also be aware that this trend is growing and the demands of the masses will soon outweigh tradition and history. i will say there are lots of places in california where people can clip to their hearts content and never have to step up to adventure to climb. i say we leave our last few wild places wild and respect the tradition that makes the meadows so special..
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 25, 2011 - 09:31am PT
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if you are gonna fall on 5.7 you dont need to be in the route.
Riley, you're assuming that a knob won't break on some solid 5.10 climber who's out there 70 feet.
I've broken knobs in Tuolumne and I haven't done as much there as some of these guys.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 25, 2011 - 12:45pm PT
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If a knob breaks then your number is up.
If you get hit by the bus your number came up ......
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 25, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
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right again Werner.
No pro on anything.
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tom Carter
Social climber
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Sep 25, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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Kurt
I agree.
Let's leave some places alone as much as possible.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 25, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
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Since I was scared when I free soloed it back then I should add bolts so I can do it safely NOW.
It will make the world safe from the run out terrorists.
They are the axis of evil.
We should declare war on those evil bastards .....
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Sep 25, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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I say yes, if the FA wants to add a bolt, then alert the guidebook writers of the inclusion then there should be no problem.
This whole "keeping it real" stuff is long gone.
If we wanted to keep it real then there would not be a bolt anywhere and every person who climbed a route would get the same (or close to the same) experience as the FA.
Once a bolt is placed it certainly makes it a little easier to get the next group to come up after.
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jw35
climber
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Sep 25, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
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I normally don't chime in but on this one I will more to clarify the first ascent. When Ricky led the 3rd pitch I kept waiting for a bolt or gear or something to clean. Which never came. Then when I reached Ricky I looked to check the anchors. There were none. He was just sitting there sans anchors. When I mentioned this He calmly replied " You weren't going to fall". Hmmmmmm..........There were no bolts, no nuts, no nada. I won't go into what I was thinking right then, but it wasn't good. So I promptly left to find some place to hopefully place some gear. The sooner the better. As to retrobolting.......Why not. In character with the rest of the route 5.7 X seems silly but then again so does 5.7 R. Add 4 or so. There are climbs making statements then and now, this is not one of them. Nor should it be. There are plenty of retro bolted climbs in the meadows and I clip them all.
Jim
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 25, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
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I did super chicken a few years ago. Didn't even consider doing that third pitch, even though it looked easy and way fun. 150' with zero gear? That is a solo. Even if the pitch had 2 bolts it's 50 feet between bolts. It may ruin the pitch for the 5.11 hardmen who brave this 5.7 testpiece, but if you fall or a knob breaks you get to live.
I don't know... I am generally against retrobolting stuff, but zero gear is a solo. If guys want to solo the route they still get to die if they fall.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 25, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
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Boy, that's a sticky wicket. I remember adding bolts to Stoner's Highway on Middle because there initially were some dangerous sections and we thought nobody would climb the thing otherwise. If you'll recall, Ricky, we also (or I did) added a bolt on the fist pitch of Ten Carrot at Suicide (last bolt before the 1st belay) believing that few climbers wanted to risk a 100 foot fall on 5.8/9. Both of these routes have now been done thousands of times I should think.
One route we DIDN'T stitch up was Black Primo (Kevin ran the rope pretty far on the 2nd pitch, and my knees were knocking repeating this lead with Billy Westbay several years later), which is the best of the three and probably has been done less than a dozen times. I wouldn't swap my experience on Black Primo with Kevin and George on the FA, but I trust it would be an all-time classic with a few more bolts.
So I have no idea what to do . . .
JL
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Nick
climber
portland, Oregon
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Sep 25, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
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My voice does not carry the weight of some, yet I feel like chiming in. I personally think that adding the bolts to the third pitch will continue the character of the climb. Ricky, remember the route we did that day on West Farthling wall this last August where it was obvious that two different people had put it up. Sometimes the bolts were very closely spaced and at others times had a more Meadows feel to it. I think a route can be like that too. If the first two pitches were spicy, I would say leave it, but it makes sense to me to bring the third pitch into character with the rest of the climb. Perhaps paint the hangers yellow.
On the few routes I have put up with an R/X rating, I often regret not putting in more bolts so that others have a more enjoyable experience. In some ways having the drill on your hip adds courage to your lead as you have the option of drilling if a stance presents it self.
Nick
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Sep 25, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
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Interesting and complex question.
My gut feeling says that if you did the first ascent and feel any inclination now to add a bolt, go ahead because if anyone has the moral obligation to do so it is you. There is no dearth of "test pieces" in the Meadows. The fact the majority of parties stop at the second pitch should be a consideration.
Certainly Snake Dike is a classic example. The original ascent team of Beck, Bridwell and Fredericks felt more bolts should be added and today it is one of the all time Classic routes. I was on the second ascent before Roper added "some" bolts and there was no doubt more bolts were required. Largo has some great analogies both ways.
First ascents are works of art. Some superb, others worthless, a given in the eyes of the creator and an option for later ascents.
If you were to put up Super Chicken today at your present age and ability what would you do? I think with your stellar resume and reputation for integrity you can pretty much justify doing what you please.
Consider the author that writes a superb novel but no one can get past the second chapter from lack of a simple paragraph or two.
Then again I always felt that if you did the first ascent you also have the option to rename the climb. Now that ought to stir up some sh#t?
Rest assured that no matter what you do, you won't win with the pundits on ST but a noble effort indeed to confront the beasts.
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Sep 25, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
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Here's a vote for some respectfully placed bolts. They may keep a future climber alive. That sounds pretty ethical to me. (Plus, that means I can then go climb it!)
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 25, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
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I'm gonna have to say I am on the other side of the fence than most if not all of you. Rebolting it now is a pile of crap as it will only open it up to climbers with less talent. Shoes are infinitely better than when you cruised it Rick and that alone makes it easy enough. The "ownership" of the FA party has subsided as the route now stands years later with other repeats (and werner's solo). Let some other folks emulate the FA.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 26, 2011 - 12:37am PT
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The route is already no longer pure.
Routes always remain pure.
It's us that become/bcame impure ......
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Sep 26, 2011 - 12:54am PT
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There is so much rock out there and there are numerous new safe climbs (at the end of Dozier, Blown Away, Shagadelic etc.) The reason I started trad climbing was the challenge and Rick's climbs in TM, Taquitz, Suicide were hallowed ground. I love to climb the older routes and still like to climb over old bolts. I have been replacing old bolts to make climbs safer but I'm with the Kid on this one 'cause when do you stop? Why not add a bolt to Grey Ghost and on and on... Of coarse the FA has the call but I would hope the spirit stays. I've worked hard to be able to get to a place where I can climb these things. I plan on climbing Greasy but Groovy this fall (FA: Rick Accommazo, John Long, Richard Harrison). Adding a bolt to that climb would definitely ruin it for me.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Sep 26, 2011 - 02:03am PT
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contradictory consideration that at some point the wider climbing community becomes responsible for anchor decisions
This sounds like a defeatist argument accepting an inevitable conclusion. This is not the case. Community is not always required for an ascent, nor is the question of retrobolting required. However, I've always believed in the metaphor of authorship of one's climb.
So Rick, I'm not sure we've met in person, but I think clearly it's your call to make and that you are only asking folks for the merits of retro'ing vs. leaving it.
With that said, it's a very tough call to make. I would suggest that if you already had a strong desire to change it, you wouldn't be asking the question. But since you ask, you have doubt.
If that doubt wanes, and you want to climb that pitch in your current condition, go for it! But if going up and rapping in and drilling by hand and figuring out good placemens (actually perfect placements since retrobolting with shitty clips is lame as fuk), and might I suggest based on Jim's thought that you add an anchor, doesn't appeal to you, then sit on it awhile.
In the meantime, maybe the story might get some other's to check it out.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 26, 2011 - 02:13am PT
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If what Jim Wilson wrote is accurate about there being no belay bolts at the end of the pitch in question on the FA, then bolts have already been added to make the route safer. There were 2 old rusty 1/4" bolts there when we replaced them in 2003. From that belay (for the next pitch) you climb quite a ways out right and up to join some not-very-splitter cracks, then continue back left and up.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 26, 2011 - 02:43am PT
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You're the Man Rick, and your judgement is trusted, and you're the one who would perhaps have questions in your heart if some 5.9 leader took a 200 foot fall and got whacked up there, so whatever you think.
Personally, I don't see how 5.7 x faces match up with 5.9 classic cracks. What's the point? To make it spicy for the very rare 5.10+ climber who has business soloing that onsight?
Cause two bolts on a full pitch is still VERY spicy. More sweat and fear might be inspired on that pitch if it had two bolts cause a few people would choose to do it. Even 4 bolts a pitch is spicy for that grade of climb and then it would be popular.
Guess I'm not much of a traditionalist. I say the punishment should fit the crime and the protection should match the climb. 5.7 faces are not for climbers good enough to onsight solo them.
Bachar told me about his solo FA of Solitary confinement. Some key knob was sketchy and looked to break when he was up there and he almost bought it right then. Some would call that a noble adventure but I dunno. Wonder how many ascents that 5.9, allegedly 5 star route has had? Seems like a waste to me if even the best in the world at runouts at the time needed luck to survive.
Peace
Karl
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