Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
|
"I don't think an FA/developer owns the route, but is one of many stewards that ultimately rules by consensus."
Mostly agree, though I think the FA/developer should hold ultimate veto power- if local consensus (who defines who this group is, anyway?) feels that bolts should be added, but the FA strongly feels otherwise, their judgment should be honored.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
|
To the OP...
done pretty much (within loose parameters)
This is what you acknowledged already, so you've answered your own original question.
But I suspect you're really about Sermon number 412. :)
Agree a hundred percent. It's the discourse that is missing. Not that you can't make sport climbs and lots of them because, lets face it, if you can drill top down it will always be faster than ground up.
But with the rise of gym trained climbers who don't ever read Robbin's Basic RockCraft and know that it is a limited resource and a conservative approach has merit, then we miss the opportunity for people to learn that there is a different way and one that has a lot of fun in it!!! Abusrdly fun! Clip, clip go, can be super fun too! So both are worthy in moderation. It's the excessiveness that unless we talk to our friends about it and dialogue about the specifics that we are likely to foul up an area, or cliff or a single climb.
There should be a class on route development that goes into detail on all aspects so that newbies can learn both sides, not just one style or the other.
|
|
Joe
Social climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
|
been having this discussion with a number of people lately, and indeed I did call it a misappropriation of natural resources...once the line has been grabbed by the FA party, it's gone...I'm sure we can all come up with numerous examples from our home crags of rock we would love to climb, but don't necessarily want to risk our neck on...and I've also seen a number of examples where the first ascentionists decided to go back and add bolts only to have them chopped...which raises the question of when does a route become public domain...no easy answers...
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
|
As one who does do alot of first ascents, if anyone who logically argue the point that any of my first ascents had fixed protection in the wrong spots or that they wished to add some fixed protection to said climb.....I would probably 9 out of 10 times say;.....go for it. We already had our adventure and thrills;...if you feel strongly about the climb needing more fixed gear;....have at it.........I do realize that not everyone feels this way;....
as usual the man nails it. the FA team had its adventure and thrills. that moment in time can never be retrieved. if the FA team somehow screwed up then frankly i fail to see how they own it. common courtesy might persuade one to call them to get their two cents on a retrobolt, but ownership is slippery. then of course comes the question, "why after ## years does the FA team give a sh#t?
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
|
"...if the FA team somehow screwed up then frankly i fail to see how they own it. common courtesy might persuade one to call them to get their two cents on a retrobolt, but ownership is slippery."
It's not about ownership, it's about common courtesy and maybe a little respect for the person who put up the route.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
|
We have these endless debates only because we think changing the rock allows us to claim we have
actually climbed the natural problem.
That these debates continue suggests we are in it for the arguments not for the climbing.
|
|
Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
|
It's not about ownership, it's about common courtesy and maybe a little respect for the person who put up the route.
What does courtesy have to do with it? Is the person who put up the route inconvenienced in some way if it changes after the fact?
What does respect have to do with it? How is the person who put up the route disrespected by adding fixed gear? (removing a bolt because you think it is unnecessary perhaps would seem more disrespectful than adding one, but that's usually not the debate.)
Seems to me that the only thing that ultimately is disrespected is the rock - we all violate that by drilling holes in it. (Not that I blame anyone for drilling on an FA - in fact I very much appreciate it.)
No, I'm not an advocate of adding bolts to any route. I just pointing out that most of these "ethical" arguments are just contrivances.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!