Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
jack herer
climber
chico, ca
|
|
shut the f*#k up bulgingpuberty
ya f*#kin dick
|
|
bradzz
Big Wall climber
vancouver canada
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
|
On hauling…
Ok.. to be clear, I’m not getting a free ride, but I do have a counterweight guy to make the pulls reasonable.
I’m really thinking about going a lot slower, but doing it all on my own. That means doing a 3 to 1 pulley system which can add lots of friction when the ropes rub on the rock.
As fellow climbers you all must understand the need to move fast for safety, but I have to squash this idea that I’m only getting hauled up the rock.
No forearm pics, but I’ll get you a few of my shoulders and pipes, cause those are the only muscles I got. Getting a lot stronger and have moved up to arm wrestling guys now! (never lost to a woman yet, few came close though).. Stronger than I look, so it is fun to ham it up. Makes for a fun bar bet anyway.
Thoughts?
Free ride jabs?
Few link to other forums on this issue:
7 summits
wheel chair stuff
|
|
Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
|
|
Tear it up Brad. Here's a thought though, have you tried to rig up a geared hand crank system to get your mechanical advantage rather than a 3:1 pulley? Might have to change your workout routine to develop different muscles, and mechanically it may be a challenge. Perhaps you can find a midget with some mechanical aptitude who can ride below your rig in a haul bag and come out to do repairs if you break down. You can have the first quad/midget ascent of, well, anything probably.
But honestly, if you want to do more yourself without the counterweight (and some poor soul jugging 6000+ feet), it seems that a mechanical system could work for you. Go to a bike shop and take a look at a road bike's gears for a while. It might help you come up with some ideas, and it might just be worth it to see the expressions on people's faces when they see a guy in a wheelchair looking quizzicly at a bike.
By the way, I'm planning on doing my first El Cap wall this spring/summer. I'd like to say that you're an inspiriation. But its more like a serious threat to my ego...
Edit: There are a handful of engineer types and other people who are generally handy with that kind of thing on supertaco. Perhaps you can get some design/fabrication assistance from some of them. I'm a mechanical engineer, if I have any good ideas, I'll send them your way.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
If you're prepared to change your gear ratio, it's easy enough to make yourself up a 3:1 or even 5:1 self-lifting ratchet assembly, and here's the thing - you don't need a separate rope and might not need anyone to help pull you if you adjust the ratio accordingly.
You can ascend a regular fixed rope with your own self-contained system. You would probably want it configured with wires and pulleys rather than ropes or perlon so there would be ZERO stretch.
Basically, you've got a T-bar that you pull down on with your arms attached to a long wire and pulley assembly. The top pulley[s] is on an ascender on the rope, and the bottom pulleys are on you [or your chair rig]. You have a separate ascender on you [or your chair rig].
With a 5:1 system, if you pull down say 20" on the T-bar, then you lift 1/5 your total weight [you plus your chair rig] four inches per stroke. You adjust the lifting ratio to what works best for you. If you are lazy like me, you might prefer a higher ratio to give you more pulls of less force, but moving shorter distances with each lift. If you are feeling burly, you might want to decrease the ratio to make harder pulls, but more lift each time. It all depends on how hard and how fast you want to work. What also affects the equation is how much stroke you can get with your arms - for instance, do you get as much pulldown distance as a non-disabled guy? And how hard can you pull down - how does your strength compare?
There would be a helluva lot less clusterf*ck in the rigging, too, without the extra ropes running all over the place, and you could legitimately say that you climbed El Cap completely under your own steam. What does it matter if you take one pull to lift yourself two feet, or three pulls, or five pulls, or even seven pulls? You pull enough times, you get to the summit.
By yourself.
|
|
Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
|
|
and just that fast, PTPP comes up with a better way...
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
I have, like, hauled a lot of beer up El Cap, eh? I believe I have spent 261 nights up there now.
|
|
the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
|
|
"Free ride jabs?"
I like that one on your website (or maybe linked to a discussion board) where the guy (another quad) called you luggage (thinking your partners were just hauling you up / you weren't doing any work). You seem to have a good sense of humor, or I wouldn't bring it up. But you know how climbers name their haul bags / pigs? Maybe you and/or your rig should have a similar name, e.g. fat bastard, titanic, Boss Hog...
I didn't get the autograph joke above at first, but after it was flamed I got it, pretty funny actually.
I think Pete's got the right idea. Mechanical advantage down on your rig. Steel cable to a come-along? Pete what's the link for your bottom end of the rope haul setup? If it proves impractical though I don't think getting assistance negates your ascent. Just do it in the best style possible.
|
|
bradzz
Big Wall climber
vancouver canada
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2006 - 06:59pm PT
|
Oh, hey guys..
All good ideas.. thanks.
There is a guy from Israel that made a rig sorta like mine, but was gear powered. He had Hans and Steve helping rig for him on the nose but had to come down.
We have used many different types of pulley ratios and all the rest. The 1 to 1 with counterweight really is the fastest and most straight forward. We would swap out the counterweight guy a few times, but yea.. he is working hard .
Of course I want to do it totally on my own muscle, but there are trade offs. Like a paraplegic can do that, but is not realistic for a quad. But, we are getting there.
keep em coming guys..
thanks,
brad
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
bradzz
I asked this earlier in this thread "Why are you doing this" and "What do you get out of it"?
I really want to know.
It is just my curiosity into human nature, what drives you to do something like this. Please see this as an honest inquiry.
I mean no disrespect to you.
|
|
bradzz
Big Wall climber
vancouver canada
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2006 - 07:22pm PT
|
I asked this earlier in this thread "Why are you doing this" and "What do you get out of it"?
Well, what do you get out of climbing?
I climbed hard before my injury and see it as only logical to continue my goals. Sure it is not the same, power and grace enjoyment, but I'm still up there with great friends having an adventue.
guys, ask anything you like...
brad
|
|
bradzz
Big Wall climber
vancouver canada
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2006 - 10:06pm PT
|
from donny via myspace
Actually, the rap idea is perfect. I was up there a few years ago when a group of cavers from Alabama/Mississippi rapped the face just east of the Nose, near Mescalito. They had PMI internally splice ropes to give them about 3000 feet. A team hiked up with 3000 feet of 1/4" rope, tossed it and hauled the 3000 foot 11mm rap line. It took 6 guys to carry the rap line to the base! Anyway, they rapped with a rappel bar, starting with 4 bars I believe and adding at least two during the decent. I have some pictures, I'll see if I can scan them and send them to you. The rope cost them about $1500 but I'm sure PMI would donate at least part of that.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Brad,
I like Burns' / Pete's ideas of using a mechanical advantage instead of a counterweight. I'm reminded of Peter Reike's SnowPod that he used to climb Mt. Rainier:
http://www.mobilityeng.com/
If you combine it with a single continuous fixed line in the Dawn Wall area, it seems like a much simpler project than going pitch-to-pitch on some route (less wasted energy in getting clipped into the anchors, lowering out, etc.). It also gives you a straightforward way to get back down (just rap). And, since it's fairly steep there, you could probably ditch the wheels for much of the time when you are just jugging in space, and lighten up the payload. If you like the counterweight system, you could rig that with a single rope at the Dawn Wall, too. And your counterweight can just be a dead weight instead of a guy (no jugging required for the counterweight). Probbably you'd want to have a second rope in place for support crew.
Have fun,
Clint
(incomplete paraplegic)
|
|
bradzz
Big Wall climber
vancouver canada
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2006 - 12:03am PT
|
Yea I favor the gears too.. but it takes soo much longer it will be more dangerous. Longer time on wall, carry more sh*t, more chance of storms etc… That puts my crew at greater risk.. you all know the deal.
And there is a guy (not a quad) with a geared rig out there, but it is not a good design for a quad. I have to pull, not peddle.
His name is Felix Slamovics, and you can google him.. here is his design:
so, maybe this first trip will be with a counterweight.. I’m sure I’ll have naysayer regardless, part of the story.
All good thoughts so far, thank you
brad
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Bradzz thanks for your response.
Test all the ideas and you'll come up with a nice solution.
|
|
ryanb
climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
neat rig...
could you just put both bedals on one side ant through free wheel (ratchet off a bike wheel? you'd probably need that and some sort of one way trick too...) in the system to turn the pedalling rig into a pulling rig?
(instead of spinng the pedals you would just pull/push them back and forth along one side of their circular path)
|
|
the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
|
|
I was thinking about this a lot last night. I can't tell you how cool I think it is.
I had the same thoughts as Clint. If you can ascend a single (or a couple really long) free hanging line it will make things a lot easier (and be belayed pitch by pitch on the nearest route for safety). Is there a spot completely overhanging over in the Zodiac area? (so you're going for 1800' instead of 3000'). Anyone who has hauled can tell you (and with my miniscule experience with a para climbing) free hanging hauling is MUCH easier than dragging on the rock.
As I said earlier, assistance in the haul may need to be part of the game, but here's a picture of a come along (which may mean you could haul yourself):
Oh yeah, one more name for the rig: Brad's Flying Circus ;-)
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Brad writes,
"Of course I want to do it totally on my own muscle, but there are trade offs. Like a paraplegic can do that, but is not realistic for a quad. But, we are getting there."
I do not know enough about your specific handicap, and what your limiting physical conditions are. I certainly get the trade-offs. However why is it not realistic for a quad? I believe it was Archimedes who said, "give me a lever and I can lift the world." It may not have been Archie, but probably one of them old farts in a toga. And apart from the problem of where to place his fulcrum, he is correct.
You can lift yourself, dude, and you can lift yourself plus your chair rig. And you do it by yourself, without the help of anyone else as a "counterweight", thus proving that you don't need anyone else's help to physically climb El Cap. The way you do this is by figuring out the best gear ratio that works for you.
You have written and implied that nothing is impossible, and that you are limited only by your own imagination. I believe that you may have improperly defined "realistic" as evidenced in your statement below.
Brad writes,
"Yea I favor [sic - you spell like a Merrican, eh?] the gears too.. but it takes soo much longer it will be more dangerous. Longer time on wall, carry more sh*t, more chance of storms etc… That puts my crew at greater risk.. you all know the deal."
Of course we all know the deal! I fully get it. When I climb El Cap, I tend to do it more slowly. I climb in Full-On Holiday Mode. It is rare for me to climb El Cap in less than a week, because I don't want to. I'm sometimes up there for two weeks when I'm having fun with a partner I like. Sometimes that partner is me when I'm soloing.
El Cap is a dangerous place - you can get stormed on and die if you are unprepared. That is part of the game. It's not a walk in the park.
I think what you need to reconsider is the amount of time and work you will have to put out in order to make this happen. If it takes me a week of effort to climb El Cap, and I am prepared to risk being caught in storms [and to take the appropriate precautions] then why not you?
Up until now, you have had it easier by using a counterweight person to assist you in your ascent. I do not know how long it takes you to climb a pitch this way. Can you please tell us what is your average length of time to climb a 150-foot pitch using your current lifting system with the assistance of your counterweight hauler? If I had a counterweight hauler, I could climb it faster, too. But I don't, at least for the jugging. Sometimes I put my partner on the other end of the haul line for pulling up the pigs, though!
If you're going to do it on your own, it's going to be harder. WAY harder. You're going to have to lift yourself by yourself. Now, before you go and say, "you have it easy, Pete" in some ways, you're right. I have it hugely easier hauling myself up there when I ascend a fixed rope or clean a pitch. But I also have to haul all my food, water and beer. My microwave oven and TV set are quite heavy, you know. So after I haul my own ass up there, I have to haul a pair of pigs, both of which weigh more than me, and both of which require a 2:1 mechanical advantage hauling system. So I haul myself once, and two pigs two times, that's about a 5:1 hauling ratio for me on a typical wall. Others choose to climb lighter, and I sometimes do, but that is typically what I do when I'm on holidays.
I can't do it in a day. It takes longer. I climb it a foot at a time.
Perhaps what you need to do is to redefine your constraints, and take a closer look at what you can actually do. Engineer-climbers like me can help. If it takes you three hours to ascend a single pitch, so frickin' what? All you have to do is climb two pitches a day! Hell, for me, that's a fast day!
Six hours of work over two pitches a day will get you up El Cap in a week and a bit, a perfectly acceptable time. Surely we can come up with a system with a hauling ratio that will allow you to ascend fifty feet per hour under your own steam, without requiring the assistance of anyone else?
You do want to climb it by yourself, do you not? Voice of Dirty Harry: "Well, do ya? Punk?!"
|
|
the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
|
|
If a quadriplegic said to any normal person "I'm going to climb El Cap", they'd say "you're crazy, that's impossible."
But you say it to climbers and they say "cool, but can't you do it in a better style?" LOL.
|
|
bradzz
Big Wall climber
vancouver canada
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2006 - 05:29pm PT
|
Been there, done that... In the early days I was very adamant about doing it totally on my own, but slowly let go of that.
Guys, it is more pure, but it has issues... ones we could not resolve, but will revisit. Like re-threading the winch and such. Trust me when I say we have been through all the obvious mechanical designs a few times already.
Even on the blue rig I've used a z-drag to up my advantage etc... but as a group we agreed to keep it simple. We have had break downs that stop us dead in our tracks. so, it is an on going process to get it 100% quad powered.
As for pulling power.. I’m stronger on the right arm, but pull about 50-60 pounds per pull. The limiting factor is the hand splints. Even the best designs will put all the pressure on my thumbs.. it fells like doing chin ups in hand cuffs! So, yes, I have strong arms, but zero hand function! There are link on my site to disability sites if you are keen to know more about my injury.
Thanks for all the thoughts thus far, any more route choices and lowering ideas? Need the steepest line we can get to avoid edges on the lower.
|
|
bradzz
Big Wall climber
vancouver canada
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 12:04am PT
|
If a quadriplegic said to any normal person "I'm going to climb El Cap", they'd say "you're crazy, that's impossible."
But you say it to climbers and they say "cool, but can't you do it in a better style?" LOL.
This is sooo ture, made my laugh pretty hard!
Next time I'll speed solo it with out any extra water ok?
bz
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!