Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2005 - 08:15pm PT
|
Petzl also made a version of the ring bolt. The Petzl had a slightly larger tapered cone that that bolt hammered into, expanding the bolt's base. It's probably still in their catalog, I think the Euro's still use the 8mm and 10mm shallow self-drill bolts which are similar.
If the funkness doesn't work, you could take an acetylene torch and cut the bolt off flush with the rock. A climber who probably should-forever-remain-nameless back in 1988 made a backpack acetylene torch set-up and cut all the bolts off the steep wall on Windy Point (which had recently been sport-bolted on rappel) in Tucson.
It only took him a few hours to clear about 30 3/8" bolts.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2005 - 10:25pm PT
|
Brian, your response is entirely based on your perception of those bolts as "bomber." If I thought those were bomber I would have done as you suggested and just pulled & patched the old bolt. My initial reaction was "heinously weak looking." Stories of the bent rings on those bolts on El Cap seem to back up that assessment. We won't really know unless someone tested them.
It's a good reminder, I'll go up there soon and see if I can just funk out the bolt. If the ring breaks, maybe we can find the acetylene torch backpack?
As to the originality of the bolt, obviously the ring is a lot newer than 1966, so the old Leeper would be the original one (but remember that the FA allowed retrobolting of the Dike Route back when it first went up, so you'd have to know which ones he did on the FA and which were added right after).
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
|
Aug 16, 2005 - 12:02am PT
|
hi,
I think deuce is right. In the mid 80's about when sport climbing was growing in the states petzl made a ring bolt, REI even sold them I think. They were constant diameter with a small pin in the end so in a hole drilled the right depth the pin would flare the bolt to lock it in place. the ones I remember are fairly short, about 2" long, with the funky ring (welded) on the end. Good luck.
G
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Aug 16, 2005 - 01:24am PT
|
Hey Greg,
There's a good chance that you could successfully funk it out w/o breaking the ring. Pullout strength on that bolt has to be crap.
Remember that oversized "tuning fork" that I made out of a 1" cold chisel? From the looks of the photo, I think that would work. It might require a 3/8" wide slot, so maybe making one from a 1-1/2" chisel would be best. A claw hammer would do the same thing, especially if you were to modify the slot to fit the diameter of the bolt.
Buenas suerte,
John
|
|
Landgolier
climber
Arlington, VA
|
|
|
Aug 16, 2005 - 10:03am PT
|
Man, I had a pucker moment when I saw that pic of these. I was going to suggest what zardoz said, take some cable with you and thread those little brotherchuckers once the ring breaks. I guess you'd have to carry a swage tool too and crimp a loop, or you could thread, make a mini-funkness, clip both loops, then cut and reuse one side.
If you're not doing 30 a day, I'm not sure a cutting wheel on a drill wouldn't be easier than the acetylene rig. Be sure to memorize some good lines from Ghostbusters if you do head up with a tennessee speed wrench strapped to your back, tho. "Each of us is wearing an unlicensed nuclear accelerator on our back. No problem."
|
|
kev
climber
CA
|
|
|
Aug 16, 2005 - 01:46pm PT
|
I've seen another one somewhere in the meadows this year. I'll talk to my partners and see if they remember where so I can let you know. Sorta sad (in a nostalgic way) to see them go but they need to. Thanks Gregg!
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
Duece4 said:
If the funkness doesn't work, you could take an acetylene torch and cut the bolt off flush with the rock. A climber who probably should-forever-remain-nameless back in 1988 made a backpack acetylene torch set-up and cut all the bolts off the steep wall on Windy Point (which had recently been sport-bolted on rappel) in Tucson.
It only took him a few hours to clear about 30 3/8" bolts.
_
I just saw this. Holy crap that's some risky business Deuce. Hard dirty brutal dangerous work. Hanging on a wall, probably with dark glasses as a shield, with hot red burning metal sparks and the torch itself trying to melt your rope with heavy tanks hanging off you someplace.... H-O-L-Y F*ing S-H-I-T I think that I just sh#t my pants right here at my desk and my testicles climbed right up past my Adams apple to my mouth. I can't talk from reading that...... I'm buying that man a beer if he's still alive and I run into him. OMG!! That there is a MAN!
So, how the hell do you pull out an old rusty POS stud (standard wedge anchor, 3/8", steel) so you can re-use the hole? BTW, the correct answer isn't a large 2' crowbar. It gets great purchase but didn't budge it. Joseph has linked some Steve Grossman ST stuff the discussion is starting over here: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/893078#Post893078
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Try Home Depot. I got my small oxyacetylene set up there and they probably still carry them. About $300 as I remember. With a cutting torch I would think you should easily be able to melt the bolt well down into the hole so you can get a good epoxy/rock patch.
If you have the right torch tip you can probably put a hook into the same hole you are clearing with the torch and so avoid coming down on rappel. Get a camelback and direct a stream of water at the tip of the hook.
Using a rappel would be poor style.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
Dude noooooooo. You can't yank the Water Crack bolts those are CLASSICS. Who actually falls on those things anyway. Please leave them for posterity.
|
|
Big Joe
Trad climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2014 - 10:11am PT
|
Does anyone know who made these? The assumption around these parts, Boulder, CO, has always been Mammut. Was it instead Petzl or maybe both? And does anyone by chance have a spec sheet on these things? We called Mammut and they don't have any recollection of them or ever distributing.
The ask for a spec sheet is to try and ascertain the Rockwell Hardness for the metal so we can correctly select drill bit hardness for attempts at center drilling which may allow for funking and/or using subsequent taping and then threading with a stud and wrench to pull.
Here is a brief article on some techniques we have used to attempt to remove. If the original install hole is too long then they do not expand correctly when placed and can be funked out fairly easy. The rings will bend a bit on heavy funking. However, we have discovered that text book installs can not be removed even with a high force hydraulic puller w/out damaging the rock. They are bomber if installed correctly, but a PITA to clip.
|
|
Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2014 - 11:38am PT
|
I'm pretty sure they were sold by Mammut around 1988-89. I had a mail order climbing gear company back then and sold them. (fortunately, I didn't sell many of them!)
I placed a few of them which you will find on obscure crags in the Platte. If memory serves me, CG originally used them on Paris Girl.
Each bolt was sold with another piece use to drill the hole - they looked like these, without the cone in place:
Assuming you were hand drilling, you also needed a handle that held the drilling bolt so you could hammer drill the hole - wish I had a picture of those. They were a pain to place and I'll bet most were not placed correctly.
They also sold hangers and cap screws that could be used with the bolts pictured above.
|
|
JimT
climber
Munich
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
|
They are probably the venerable Stubai ring bolt though they were actually a generic product so I´ve seen them referred to as Kong or Cassin as well. Plenty of them around in the Alps.
The best way to get them out is start with rotating them a lot with a big pipe wrench then pull a bit then turn more. Better than nothing in a bit of granite, not that good in sandstone!
|
|
Big Joe
Trad climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
|
Bubba,
Thanks for the reply. Yes Cristian did use them on Paris Girls. There are probably 40 or so in Eldo and more in the Flat Irons and Boulder Canyon. Right now we are mostly chopping with a grinder and patching, but ideally would like to re-use the holes.
|
|
Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
|
Joe, I have no idea how to get them out of softer stone like Eldo without rock breakage around the hole.
The only ones I have pulled were some that had the rings cut on a new route in the Platte. I put a bolt through the hole, attached chain and funked them out. None of the holes were reusable as the rock broke around the hole.
If you could build a jig to center drill them to cut the cone in the bottom, they would come out easily. The steel is soft enough and based on some of the fancy stuff Greggerman had at Anarchy when we rebolted that, it might be possible. I guess I envision cutting off the ring, then putting a jig over the bolt head that has something that goes in the ring holes to hold in in place and keep everything from spinning, but not far enough in to interfere with the drill. Since the bolt is mostly hollow, it seems like a limited amount of drilling would be necessary. If you could then cut a bit of the expansion cone off, they would pull easily.
|
|
Big Joe
Trad climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2014 - 10:06am PT
|
Bubba, I do not think a jig will work as a flat surface is not guaranteed and it might be complicated with adjustable legs to get the angle just right. Careful, slow and well lubed hand center drilling should work. We are in the process of seeing if we can determine the Rockwell Hardness for proper drill bit selection. Will update when know more.
|
|
Big Joe
Trad climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 09:53am PT
|
Bubba,
Let me know if you or anyone else has some Mammut/Cassin/Kong/Stubai ring bolts. I am looking around for some more to practice removal techniques. Post up here and I'll get in touch with you ASAP.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 10:53am PT
|
If you want to get a clean pull on a cone expansion type anchor like this and avoid the possibility of a nasty crater then the only good option is drilling a cone diameter sized hole all the way to the bottom of the hole to clear away the cone directly and thereby negate its holding power. Never a fun or cheap option as you need to use cobalt bits and cutting oil to get that job done properly. Mask around the hole to keep the cutting oil from becoming a problem. A bit of aluminum foil comes in handy to catch the oil and metal shards as part of the masking.
This type of anchor fortunately never became popular over here.
The self driving shield type expansion anchor has internal threads that can be used to remove the shield as long as you are able to clear out the machine bolt to reinsert a longer machine bolt with the threads ground away to allow it to contact the cone directly. You want to use a Grade 8 machine bolt for this type of extraction as it doesn't take a big amount of torque to shear a 1/4" or 5/16" machine bolt head right off.
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
|
Mount Lemmon Route right of Steves Arete is "Green Ripper 5.12 that has those ring bolts. For sure they are Mammut Ring Bolts since I have a few that are stamped "Mammut." Drill the hole, put cone in end, put unit into hole and beat the crap out of it. Great for Granite! Came out in the early 1980s? Or earlier? Lord of the Rings route is also named for these ring bolts.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Bachar's Ring Job (Arch Rock, near p1 of New Dimensions)
Let us know!