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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
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Those who've been to England have likely noticed signs in many public places, telling you that the area is under CCTV/video surveillance. A civil liberties/privacy thing. If such signs were required in Canada or the US, they'd be everywhere.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
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What evidence have you that:
1. The dead man was a socialist or liberal?
2. "socialists/liberals" have no respect for society?
Isn't it true that all right-wingers are rich liars who manipulate the government, own the news media, and steal from the needy?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
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Don't know what you are referring to.
Did the guy have a second knife?
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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Aug 15, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
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I do not have a problem with video recorders. I video and audio tape ALL of my contacts. The problem with videos is they don't always show everything that is happening, and they don't allows show extremely subtle things that maybe happening. One example is the Inglewood, CA officer who bounced a guy off his trunk. What the video didn't show was the handcuffed subject grabbing the officer's genetalia.
I can think of numerous times where people have tried to pull away from me, spin, or grab my hands that would not have been seen on video.
My use of video has cleared me from several complaints.
All use of force is ugly and violent. There is a time and place for it. If it is not justified officers should be prosecuted. I know I don't want to work with anyone that uses excessive force.
One thing I use to describe reasonable and unreasonable force is this: you know those fights most of us have been in growing up. Once it is all done and you win you usually give one last shot to send the message to the other guy to say don't mess with me again. That last shot is the one that is going to cost you your job and lots of money in the federal suit.
As for video recording in public....I want to say that several courts have ruled there is no expectation of privacy in public places.
Eric
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
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So how do you feel when other cops demand that uninvolved third parties stop shooting pictures?
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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Aug 15, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
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Personally: don't think they have any right to object to it as long as it is a public place. The cops I work with are very professional and almost always do the right thing. We do let our partners know if we see someone with a camera...just to make sure we are not using more colorful language.
Professionally: the public has the right to video tape what is happening in public.
When we first got cameras many were upset. But if you aren't doing anything wrong who gives a flying f$?@ if you are on camera
Eric
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
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Precisely.
I wish all cops were as professional.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 15, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
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Fatty.. Any trained fighter will tell you that once you have thrown your knife you no longer have a knife. That is the #1 reason that trained fighter do not throw knifes. Additionaly past threats do not justify the use of deadly force. It does not matter if the threat is 2 weeks or 2 seconds old. If it is not present threat of imminant deaDLY harm to you or annother person the use of deadly force is not justified. If the suspect has a 2nd knife and has clearly demonstrated that he is willing and intent on useing that knife then deadly force is justified. If he throws his knife, misses and then you shoot him because you are pissed that he threw a knife at you it is nothing more than a revenge killing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
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Oops, Riley ricochetted.
(always nice to be able to make sweeping statements based on singular examples, but if the foo shlts you may end up wearing it)
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 15, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
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In some major cities (e.g., Denver) there are A LOT of cameras on street corners video taping everything. They were put there for the Democratic National Convention years ago and are still in force (no number can be determined - it's confidential). I've been in the 'control room' and it's amazing.
Point being, in many places your hand held camera or a dash cam is just redundant. As stated above - no expectation of privacy in a public area.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 15, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
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Tradman,
Interesting thought. In what you said, bad guy had shown LEO intent and ability to kill said LEO. If LEO immediately takes out bad guy, it’s justified. Emphasis on immediately.
EDIT: What would you do if the situation was an invasion of your home with similar circumstances? Bad Guy would be posting a TR from hell.
g
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
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Crimps,
the difference is that YOU maintain possession.
Think you are likely to see all the video from Fullerton with the cops controlling it?
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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
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Let me clarify one thing no one should be recording tactical entries for officer safety. And FPD would be fools not release tapes after it is all said and done.
Side note: the test for reasonable force is that force a reasonable and prudent officer would use given the same facts and circumstances at the time.
And with the King incident most of the strikes were justified. The last several were not and that is why cops went to jail. (the sending a message).
I hope I am not sounding that all cops are always right. I don't believe they are. Just trying to show the other side. I am always open to PMs to discuss things. As this is a public forum I mist be careful of what I say.
*all of these are my opinions and not necessarily the opinions of my employer*
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
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Denver also has an independent monitor (Richard Rosenthal) who is quite a squeaky wheel. It is not a perfect system, but it and the cameras certainly has weeded out some problems.
edit: I wonder if the downturn in the economy may has some influence. That is, cities cannot afford to pay out the big bucks for the deeds of these few miscreants. I wonder if they are quicker to ditch them earlier as a result?? Just thinking out loud. Unions may not allow such variation... I wonder.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 15, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
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fatty. Just repeeting what I learned in the course that I had to take to become an armed bodyguard BINTD. The officer teaching the course made it very clear that if you shot someone there was a 100% chance that you would face civil suit and a very good chance of being criminally charged..
My understanding is that if the guy throws the knife and you can not see his hands and you feel he has annother weapon you can shoot but you better hope he actually has that weapon because you will end up in court. If you can see his hands and you take the shot after he has thrown his knife away you will most likly lose in court unless you are a cop and all your buddys lie for you. If someone tells you that they are going to kill you and they have a gun you can shoot them, if they say they will kill you and then they turn to walk away and you shoot them in the back tacticaly you did the right thing but you will lose in court as the past threat had no bearing on the present.
We just had a case here in VT where a guy went crazy with an ax at a softball game. A redneck got his hunting rifle out of the truck and shot ax man in the leg. Ax man then started crawling away and hunter man finished him off. Hunter man went down with murder 2.
Tactically hunter man did the right thing correcting his error of poor marksmanship by finishing off AX Man. You simply do not want folks like AX Man to live and come after you on annother day. However, morally and legally, shooting AX Man in the back as he crawled away begging for mercy was not justifyed.
Often the right tactical move is not the right legal move or the right moral move. Wild Bill Hicock was the master of the right tactical move. If he heard someone was running their mouth threatening him he would hunt that guy down and shoot him on sight. Pre emtive strike that put the riff raff in a pine box before they had a chance to start any real troubble. I bet fatty wishes he could get away with that tactic today.........
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
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Not saying things haven't improved there, but when I was 19 I saw a Denver cop outright lie under oath.
That, and having a Chief Ranger at Colorado National Monument threaten to shoot at my ropes were real eye openers.
Obviously I'm in favor of accountability.
edit;
read TMC's post.
Redneck made 2 mistakes;
1) screwed up the first shot
2) shooting after the threat had ceased
I guess if the guy wasn't trying to recover his ax that the redneck deserved a beef, but murder 2?
How many got the chop before the shooting?
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Aug 15, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
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It has to do with liability in using discretion.
Not every situation is black and white, there are grey areas where a level headed decision in using ones own discretion can dissolve or remedy a given situation.
For example, a cop pulls over a driver for whatever reason. Driver smells like marijuana is found to be in possession of a small bag of weed. Driver is coherent and showing no signs of being under the influence. Driving abilities do not appear to be impaired at any level.
Now, the officer is expected to preform a stigmas test for sobriety and issue a situation. A small infraction in Cali but a Misdemeanor in some other states. Instead the officer uses discretion and wind tests the weed (aka pours it out and stomps it into the dirt) in order to quickly wrap things up and get both Driver and Officer off the side of the road quickly.
With cameras installed, few officers would feel comfortable doing such a minor favor because of liability from using ones discretion. It may not seem like a big deal to anyone. But try telling that to the judge should some issue come of it. You can loose your job for stupid stuff like that. Cameras make officers jobs harder plain and simple. Do you want to work with someone looking over your shoulder waiting to pounce should you make a mistake 24/7?
That's just a simple example, but there are many more as varied as stones in a river bed. Cameras do have their positive effects, but weighed up against the negative ones. I'd rather roll without thank you!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 15, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
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Nice post. Thank Salamanizer
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