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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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May 17, 2011 - 05:38pm PT
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Don't get me wrong, I'm firmly in the "emergency bivy on top, freezing to death only fires" but talking about ambiance fires being unnecessary when every campsite has fire rings, fires are permitted in the CGs year-round, and the stores all sell firewood...it comes across as comical at best.
Stop vending wood. Remove the fire rings and maybe leave one or two community rings per campground. Ban fires in the CGs June-Sept. That would make a hell of a lot more difference than focusing on the three idiots a year who are dumb enough to have a fire at the base.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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May 17, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
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There are approximately 10.3 billion fire rings at the top of El Cap. That's why an entire restoration crew, plus Jesse and I, are going up there for four days this summer.
Fires are legal at the top, but anything other than an emergency fire is, by definition, unnecessary. If you do have one, use an existing fire ring(required)and please walk to an actual forest to collect dead and down wood so as not to negatively impact the few (now limbless and duffless) trees near the rim.
Jake, you trying to change human behavior?
Fire is a staple since the beginning of man.
Just because YOU think it is unnecessary doesn't mean it is wrong.
Keep your preaching for around the campfire ;)
Camp fires are the mainstay of camping, the wild, the west, ETC
Fun, Tradition, Custom, Mystique
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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May 17, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
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I'm totally with you on the rings of fire at the base and even the excess ringing around the top of El Cap.
I may never get there, but if/when I do I don't really want to have a separate ring for every party that tops out of El Cap. Not to mention the scavenge for wood that happens up there.
How hard or bad would it be for climbers/rangers agree on a location for a big (well, not huge but bigger than normal?) fire ring at the top. Something that tells the casual out topper to gravitate toward for a fire (only if needed)....
just saying.
And I'm aware of the slippery slope we're talking about with regards to fire rings and climbers... aside from climbing, this is what they do. (Honestly, it doesn't make sense to me that a person can live on the wall for a bunch of days, then absolutely need a fire to top off the ride..)
Cheers
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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May 17, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
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Smokey fires in the valley floor are a health hazard and should be ticketed. If you can't keep your fire clean burning, put it out. The air in the valley after about 6 PM is the worst air I've dealt with just about anywhere.
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Adamame
climber
Santa Cruz
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May 17, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
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We have no place building fires or fire rings in wilderness. It sure is nice to have a fire but it sure takes a lot of work to make the impacts invisible to others.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 17, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
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Pilgrims, Jake is just not specific enough on this. Further there aren’t any images accompanying this Federal edict. But I know he is going to get a face on if we don’t grasp his secret meaning. Let me help him.
First we have the fact we simply live in one gigantic fire ring, to wit:
Surely this is not what Jake struggles with here maybe, right? But could it be the huge-ass order the NPS has placed with this tiny company for the 10.3 billion units? Look now, Pilgrims, how horribly backed up they are down at Fire Ring Inc. And how clearly there is no hope for bettering the top of El Cap with a lead time of 2.7 million years for delivery of these fire rings at the rate they are getting produced.
From space we can even see the damage done:
No; what Jake is getting at here is what is happening to the nearby forests at the base and at the top of El Cap. He doesn’t say it, but I know that he is reflecting on what happened to Half Dome when fire rings got out of control there and the suckers took off the entire top of the feature, or at least the primeval forest that once there dwelled. There just isn’t any vegetation any more, not at least like it used to be:
And even far away, the El Cap trees have been stripped for firewood
But there really is a concern and Jake is right; Look here, El Cap during a big late Spring weekend:
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 17, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
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Aftermath of the Foresta/Tamarack Flat fire, September 2009.
Maybe it should be renamed "Non-Foresta"?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 17, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
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Anders, that fire was actually a performance piece and widely misinterpreted.
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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May 17, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
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great spring shot of el cap Peter!
I don't think the fire rings along the routes are a problem
just the ones at the summit and base
...and thanks for the reminder about half dome
it's not too late to save el cap
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 17, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
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You must be retired to have the time to do that peter! Nice work though, great manipulations.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 17, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
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Jake's Fire Ring At Last
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mctwisted
Social climber
superslacker city
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May 17, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
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peter, i'll put in a bid for the fire pit contract
here is an example i made with plazma cutter, hand crank spit goes on top also, to roast up the big game
how many do you need again????
may have to find some more old rivited tanks!!!
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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Thanks Peter!
I know I don't need to address everything mentioned above, but I can't help responding to some...and Jesse (he's right here and said I can use his name) would like this thread to be kept alive so a few more folks read it.
I'm definitely not trying to preach or hassle anyone. I'm doing my job, and trying to help keep the rad places rad, and I'm trying to PREVENT people from being hassled. Anyhoo...
There are a lot more than three fires a year at the base of El Cap, though certainly not as many as in the campgrounds.
Fires in the campgrounds are quite different, despite creating unpleasant amounts of smoke. The campgrounds are already heavily impacted...they are one of the areas that we(everyone, you, government, culture)have decided to impact. El Cap is part of the wilderness that we have chosen to not impact (as much). Also, the fires in campgrounds are in well built and well cleared rings with little danger of escaping, and there are lots of people, water, etc. to put the fires out if they do get out of control.
Justifying fires at the base of El Cap with comparisons to campground fires, controlled burns, out-of control burns, etc. is pointless. Those are all separate discussions, and hopefully if you think those are lame you should be completely understanding about the drawbacks of fires at El Cap.
I don't think we want the base of El Cap to look like Foresta.
Ok folks, sorry to interrupt, continue voicing every imaginable opinion...
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 17, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
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The trees say thanks.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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May 17, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
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Lot'sa folks do the climb without fires. Seems a consensus for fire free ascents could be attainable.
The smoke-outs at the public campgrounds are often due to utterly clueless campers. Don't know the difference between wet/green and dry wood. Don't understand how fire works.
I've been meaning to write a pamphlet on this for the park service: How To Make A Campfire for Dummies or Technique For A Smokeless Campfire. The only problem is, such folks are often of an intelligence too low to follow instructions anyhow.
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mctwisted
Social climber
superslacker city
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May 17, 2011 - 10:03pm PT
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
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Melissa...I can't tell if you're joking or not.
That tree, though doing an amazing job of surviving, is one of the most thrashed ones up there. Is that you thrashing it some more? Just kidding.
Notice the completely exposed roots, absence of dirt or duff at the base, and minimal amount of branches?
That tree used to be the anchor until a few years back, so it got abused. That's also a favorite campfire spot for people...kinda windy for my tastes.
Last year we cleaned up the aftermath of a messy fire/trash heap there. The coals were still warm, and some fixed ropes were about 5 feet away!!!
The grandpappy tree(tree of knowledge...what other nicknames does it have?) up there, further from the rim and towards the Nose, is a good example of a healthy tree. It's amazing, and maybe the one at the Salathe topout could've, or still can be, like that.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 17, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
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I guess you don't know me, but I'm not entirely blind. I was posting the pic to show everyone who might not have been there the state of some of the rim trees and stick up for what you're trying to do. Yes, that's me inflicting my own moment on it.
Did you guys clear up the fixed lines too?
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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May 17, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
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+1 for tami making signs for the valley. cartoons are perfect for people who aren't so good with words. i.e. dumb shits and foreigners.
it would be nice if people could change their thoughts on the whole ambiance campfire thing. it seems slightly archaic. destroying air and trees for entertainment only does not make so much sense. nor does a raging fire so that you can hang out in shorts and a tee shirt.
whenever i see a smokey fire i think the spirits of the awanachee must be laughing at the fire builder and their incompetence as humans.
thanks jake and jesse. i'd help, but i am out east again, preparing for another bout with butt wiping and hopefully a good growing season.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 18, 2011 - 01:11am PT
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Perhaps there could be some FaceLift events, to do whatever could be done to restore the base and summit of El Cap to their pre-climber condition. It is the 50th anniversary of the ascent of the Salathe, after all, and they took pains to make committing, low-impact ascents.
Perhaps if Don Lauria comes, he can wear his blue cagoule.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/482755/The-cult-of-the-Blue-Cagoule
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